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How the war on drugs creates violence

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Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#31

Post by fsloth »

kawa wrote: post #18

There's only so much profit in the drug business because of the illegality of many drugs. Changing that would kill the profits of many very rich and powerful criminals and cartels. So it's very understandable that those people do everything they can to prevent their business model from collapsing. The usual way of doing it is simply lots of lobbying: Paying "well meaning" people, journalists and politicians to stay o…

I have no idea if gangsters partake in lobbying but I find it hard to believe it would be the main cause for the continuing policies. Some hold the view that the war on drugs is mainly ideological. Chomsky has quite a critical view of the matter. E.g.

"So there are two possibilities: Either those conducting the Drug War are lunatics, or they have another purpose."

http://hightimes.com/read/high-times-interview-noam-chomsky

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#33

Post by Synaesthesia »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #20
kawa wrote: post #18

There's only so much profit in the drug business because of the illegality of many drugs. Changing that would kill the profits of many very rich and powerful criminals and cartels. So it's very understandable that those people do everything they can to prevent their business model from collapsing. The usual way of doing it is simply lots of lobbying: Paying "well meaning" people, journalists and politicians to stay o…

It's interesting that we actually have a potential big opponent for the drug cartels - drug companies. Legalizing drugs will drive cartels out of business because they'd be competing with clean drugs sold in pharmacies, prepared in well-funded laboratories of entities used to cooperating with safety regulations. So why the Big Pharma isn't lobbying for ending the war on drugs? I wonder if it isn't the social view tha…

Firstly because they are well known drugs which they can't patent and make big profits off, their interest is in novel drugs which they can invent and profit off. Secondly they are a part of the system, and many drugs can actually threaten their model, like if mushrooms proved effective for depression, it could affect their sales of anti-depressants.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#34

Post by Synaesthesia »

fsloth wrote: post #31
kawa wrote: post #18

There's only so much profit in the drug business because of the illegality of many drugs. Changing that would kill the profits of many very rich and powerful criminals and cartels. So it's very understandable that those people do everything they can to prevent their business model from collapsing. The usual way of doing it is simply lots of lobbying: Paying "well meaning" people, journalists and politicians to stay o…

I have no idea if gangsters partake in lobbying but I find it hard to believe it would be the main cause for the continuing policies. Some hold the view that the war on drugs is mainly ideological. Chomsky has quite a critical view of the matter. E.g. "So there are two possibilities: Either those conducting the Drug War are lunatics, or they have another purpose." http://hightimes.com/read/high-times-interview-noam-c…

What's interesting is that the CIA has been proven to be involved in the drug trade, and they need untraceable money for covert operations quite frequently. Also this trade is so lucrative, that massive banks are quite involved in it too.

What's more, large corporations in the US are py directly involve in selling dangerous narcotics around the world, it's called to tobacco and it's the most lethal drug sold in the world.

It's interesting, Chomsky points out that we in the US feel entitled to send helicopters to spray coca crops and troops into Colombia to burn coca crops etc. Well hard drugs kill not even 1% of the amount of people tobacco kills, so what if China were to send helicopters and troops to destroy tobacco plantations in Virginia? Would that be acceptable?

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#35

Post by vezzy-fnord »

ptaipale wrote: post #29
TeMPOraL wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting that we actually have a potential big opponent for the drug cartels - drug companies. Legalizing drugs will drive cartels out of business because they'd be competing with clean drugs sold in pharmacies, prepared in well-funded laboratories of entities used to cooperating with safety regulations. So why the Big Pharma isn't lobbying for ending the war on drugs? I wonder if it isn't the social view tha…

> So why the Big Pharma isn't lobbying for ending the war on drugs? Because the stuff used as illegal drugs is actually dangerous to health, and pharma industry selling that stuff -- even if completely pure and legitimate -- would be disastrous for their public image, and profits. The public will want separate recreational drug companies (but even then there will be "revelations" that Big Pharma is "secretly" produci…

"Dangerous" is too vague to be useful. There's plenty of legal, commercially produced opioids and opiates. Those have been well studied and have a variety of adverse reactions if not used delicately. However, they're perceived as "medicine" or "useful drugs" and hence do not have the same stigma.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#36

Post by jacquesm »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #16
shocks wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> users supported This is the biggest thing, IMO. Legalising drugs isn't about getting control of distrubution and profits, it's more about changing societies view on drugs. We need to stop treating these people as addicts that need to be swept under the rug. We need to treat them as they are - human beings with a disease/illness for which they need help. How can they turn to us for help if we chuck them in prison fo…

Yvain's classic on disease/failure of personality is worth bringing up[0]. Also, his more recent take on (US) attitude towards treating heroin addicts[1]. The ending paragraph of [1] works as a great TL;DR: "Society is fixed, biology is mutable. People have tried everything to fix drug abuse. Being harsh and sending drug users to jail. Being nice and sending them to nice treatment centers that focus on rehabilitation…

"Experiments have shown rats to forgo food to the point of starvation in order to work for brain stimulation or intravenous cocaine when both food and stimulation are offered concurrently for a limited time each day."

From:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_stimulation_reward

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#37

Post by peterwwillis »

Violent crime in America rose dramatically as a result of worsening racial ties after the death of Martin Luther King, a lack of employment and investment in local communities, and an increase in use of heroin and (later) easier to produce drugs like crack.

Increase in the number of robbery and petty crime identically track both the increase in use of and violence associated with drug use. But the war on drugs' main influence on this violence has been to keep the pressure on the drug dealers, increasing risk to sell the product and making it less available, thus driving up prices, increasing competition, and therefore promoting violence between drug dealers, and by drug users in order to afford what they're addicted to.

And all of this leads to increased incarceration, not just from drug charges, but from the increased violence associated with the drug trade, gang warfare, and an unlawful under-society where people do whatever they can to get by.

A flow chart would make it a bit easier to grok, but basically the drug war throws fuel on a fire that was only simmering before.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#38

Post by soylentcola »

snsr wrote: post #8
reddytowns wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it that having certain problems gives you a license to demand that everyone else help you with them? We've all got problems, but for some reason whenever I mess up on my taxes or something, I'm to blame, but if someone else robs a liquor store when being addicted to heroin, "the needle made me do it, mumble ... mumble ..." is an acceptable excuse.

> is an acceptable excuse No, it's not. Going with your flawed example: having an addiction to heroin should be a socially acceptable problem, or at least one that doesn't land an addict in prison in and of itself. Helping those amongst us who are addicted helps to prevent desperate crimes.

Exactly. To put it in terms of currently legal drugs, it's not illegal to be an alcoholic. You won't be imprisoned for the compulsive use of alcohol, regardless of the framework used to describe it (poor impulse control, chemical imbalance, whatever).

But if you go beat someone up or crash your car while drunk, you're charged with those crimes, whether committed due to your addiction or not. But outside of actual crimes committed against others in society, just being in possession of alcohol or being an addict isn't illegal. Additionally, there are resources for people who want to improve their dealings with alcohol or work out the issues that are causing their problems with it. They can make use of these resources without fear of being arrested because mere possession and use isn't a crime.

I don't claim that habitual use of opiates or amphetamines or whatever is a positive thing but putting someone at risk of criminal penalties and prison because of something that is (at worst) very unhealthy is sort of preposterous when you think about it that way.

That doesn't mean we ought to turn a blind eye to crimes committed under the influence or in search of one's dose but at a minimum, possession and use ought not to be criminal offenses.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#39

Post by Consultant32452 »

fsloth wrote: post #31
kawa wrote: post #18

There's only so much profit in the drug business because of the illegality of many drugs. Changing that would kill the profits of many very rich and powerful criminals and cartels. So it's very understandable that those people do everything they can to prevent their business model from collapsing. The usual way of doing it is simply lots of lobbying: Paying "well meaning" people, journalists and politicians to stay o…

I have no idea if gangsters partake in lobbying but I find it hard to believe it would be the main cause for the continuing policies. Some hold the view that the war on drugs is mainly ideological. Chomsky has quite a critical view of the matter. E.g. "So there are two possibilities: Either those conducting the Drug War are lunatics, or they have another purpose." http://hightimes.com/read/high-times-interview-noam-c…

I don't know about the drug cartels but the prison industry definitely lobbies.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#40

Post by user_0001 »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #34
fsloth wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea if gangsters partake in lobbying but I find it hard to believe it would be the main cause for the continuing policies. Some hold the view that the war on drugs is mainly ideological. Chomsky has quite a critical view of the matter. E.g. "So there are two possibilities: Either those conducting the Drug War are lunatics, or they have another purpose." http://hightimes.com/read/high-times-interview-noam-c…

What's interesting is that the CIA has been proven to be involved in the drug trade, and they need untraceable money for covert operations quite frequently. Also this trade is so lucrative, that massive banks are quite involved in it too. What's more, large corporations in the US are py directly involve in selling dangerous narcotics around the world, it's called to tobacco and it's the most lethal drug sold in the w…

Whilst US made tobacco certainly does kill many Chinese, the vast majority of it is Chinese tobacco. The cheap <50c a packet type
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