Tesla shares dive after Consumer Reports yanks recommendation for Model S • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla shares dive after Consumer Reports yanks recommendation for Model S

#171

Post by dragontamer » Wed, Oct 21, 2015, 1:12 AM UTC

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #170

threeseed wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've had energy storage devices for homes for a while now. It isn't exactly tearing up the market. Very few people are willing to pay the significant upfront cost for the benefit of ongoing but small reductions in power bills. And that is with government subsidies (at least in Australia). I don't see how Tesla's superior technology is going to affect the product proposition.

Similarly, we've had electric cars for a while, and we've had high end sports cars and sedans for quite a while, but Tesla came along and blew most of them out of the water. Except for range, which will be solved sooner or later, it's a stunning tour de force, especially coming from an American manufacturer. I have faith that Elon Musk will also think of a way to disrupt the home energy storage market, which in my op…

http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/power/10-kw-home-sta...

You can get 10kW of power from a Gas generator for $3000 (hooked up to a Propane fuel tank... or to a gas line if you trust those). A 500 gallon propane tank will keep you running virtually indefinitely, and will only cost a few thousand after installation costs.

So you're realistically looking at $5k to $6k for a gas generator solution for a lot of people.

In contrast, Power Wall is $3500 for a paltry 2kW of power... not enough to even run my air conditioning unit let alone the rest of my house. This cost does not include the inverter, the additional batteries that need to be built out, or the electrician who needs to come out and set this all up. After that extra money spent... it is unlikely to run for much longer than 24-hours.

It is clear what the sane, reliable solution is. A gas generator. The Power Wall doesn't come anywhere close to the specs.

Re: Tesla shares dive after Consumer Reports yanks recommendation for Model S

#172

Post by blisterpeanuts » Wed, Oct 21, 2015, 1:13 AM UTC

dragontamer wrote: post #166

encoderer wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Home solar is more valuable with an attached battery. Without it, most setups as sold will shutoff if your home loses grid power. A battery is not the only way to solve this but it's the best solution if you can afford it.

But that's not what people use Solar Panels for. They use Solar Panels to reduce (or even negate) electricity costs. Spending tens of thousands of dollars on batteries that only last a few hours when grid-power is lost is not a luxury the typical person can afford. But solar panels that are cheaper (and provide revenue through net-metering) will revolutionize the energy industry. The average homeowner uses 30 kW-hrs…

Maybe get a generator + Tesla 10 kWh wall battery? Then you get the best of both worlds. The Tesla will grandfather your solar energy advantage in the evening after the sun goes down, and the generator kicks in when the grid goes down. So your primary use of the grid will be, say, midnight to 6am while you're sleeping.

Re: Tesla shares dive after Consumer Reports yanks recommendation for Model S

#173

Post by dragontamer » Wed, Oct 21, 2015, 1:21 AM UTC

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #172

dragontamer wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's not what people use Solar Panels for. They use Solar Panels to reduce (or even negate) electricity costs. Spending tens of thousands of dollars on batteries that only last a few hours when grid-power is lost is not a luxury the typical person can afford. But solar panels that are cheaper (and provide revenue through net-metering) will revolutionize the energy industry. The average homeowner uses 30 kW-hrs…

Maybe get a generator + Tesla 10 kWh wall battery? Then you get the best of both worlds. The Tesla will grandfather your solar energy advantage in the evening after the sun goes down, and the generator kicks in when the grid goes down. So your primary use of the grid will be, say, midnight to 6am while you're sleeping.

Yes, throwing more money at a problem generally solves it. But most people can't afford $10k to $20k appliances for backup power.

The true solution is the centralized utility providing energy storage for the masses. Again, large-scale infrastructure projects like the Bath County Pumped Storage Station and strong investments into a reliable local grid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_County_Pumped_Storage_Sta...

This plant provides dozens of Gigawatt-hours of energy storage for millions of Americans.

http://www.powersouth.com/mcintosh_power_plant/compressed_ai...

110 MWs of power for hundreds-of-thousands of homeowners.

-----------

You tackle this energy problem by building a strong, reliable city, town, or neighborhood. At least if you want to tackle the energy problem of the 99% instead of the 1%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_are_the_99%25

The solution is, build large-scale energy storage plants (CAES, Pumped Hydro), and then have local homeowners use the large-scale battery for storage and energy. IE: Net Metering.

Re: Tesla shares dive after Consumer Reports yanks recommendation for Model S

#174

Post by rev_bird » Wed, Oct 21, 2015, 1:22 AM UTC

I've read most of this stuff before and am still excited to get a Tesla once a more reasonably priced one comes out. One thing keeps bugging me, though: If I wanted to get up tomorrow morning and drive across the country in a gas car, I could do it no problem. When I run out of fuel after ~325 miles, I just stop for 10 minutes at a gas station and head back out on the road. With a Tesla, I need to carefully plan out charging stations <200 miles apart and stay there for what, at least an hour at a time? Do Tesla drivers just not go on road trips?

Re: Tesla shares dive after Consumer Reports yanks recommendation for Model S

#175

Post by marincounty » Wed, Oct 21, 2015, 1:25 AM UTC

nickbauman wrote: post #154

toddmorey wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear you, but it's important to note that it appears that Mercedes (a storied German luxury car with proven technology) currently has an even a lower reliability rating. That makes me think it's likely more than just company age and experience, I think there is something about a company's risk tolerance and how it relates to their eagerness to implement new tech. As the article states, the blander "appliance-like"…

Shocking as it is (since I write software for a living) I buy only used cars with as few options as possible. All manual transmission, locks, windows and doors. I don't even have A/C in one of my two cars. Owning a car in America is like a tax: you need a car to have a meaningful participation in the economy. So while I admire Tesla's technology, through this lens I can't imagine buying one in this lifetime.

My father was the same way. My father's third new vechicle was a 90's Ford truck, and he didn't want "Anything exotic--in terms of accessories." Salesperson, "But of course you want the power windows?". Father, "No, I can roll up my own windows." Father, "Give me the truck, and throw in a factory service manual. Bye."

On the way home, I said, I remember your first car, that 50's something corvette, you bought had all the options, like FI, and even a clock. Father, "Son--back then, with just my Craftman's tool kit, I could repair anything in that car."

Father, "Yea, I have the money. I just don't like paying more for something that isn't a necessity. Plus, when the day comes that I can't roll up a window--put me in a home." He took a deep inhale on that Carlton light cigarette, and took a swig off the Mickey's beer between his legs.

His automobile sensibility rubbed off on me. I never buy a vechicle I can't work on. It hasn't been a positive with the ladies though. Actually, one time my VW broke down half way to Tahoe. My girlfriend, at the time, was complaining about my old cars. Plus, it was hot and she wasen't feeling well. I got luckey and it was a simple fix. We got back on the road, and stayed at the first motel that looked clean. That night, she said, "I don't mind your old cars. I though we were going to be stuck on that dusty road--for the night." I should have been better to her. I didn't realize how special she was at the time. The grass was not greener. I still think about her. I still think about my father.

Re: Tesla shares dive after Consumer Reports yanks recommendation for Model S

#176

Post by copperx » Wed, Oct 21, 2015, 1:26 AM UTC

kpil wrote: post #76

beat wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla is a growth company that could be a giant. BMW is a stable old blue chip. Different market values entirely. At the individual car level, Tesla S is priced to match mid/high end sedans from BMW, Mercedes, and Audi, so that's the quality level they need to hit. And such quality isn't about reliability so much as fit and finish. Tesla is doing extremely well against very established competition in that regard.

Tesla is showing what a car can be - Excellent UX, a nontraditional but really nice drivetrain, a good UI for the secondary systems with frequent software upgrades, etc. It's not hard to see the trend - it's been coming for the last 15 years at least. All drivetrains will be electric, and connected to a battery and optionally a range extender of some sort. The control panel will be all big screens and apps. Meanwhile…

It reminds me of the transition from analog recording to digital recording. The finest analog recording technologies were developed just before the switch.

Re: Tesla shares dive after Consumer Reports yanks recommendation for Model S

#177

Post by pneumaio » Wed, Oct 21, 2015, 1:30 AM UTC

Is interesting how much influence Consumer Reports wields relative to other publications that review and rate products.

Don't own a Tesla, or have an opinion on their reliability, but wonder sometimes if we don't need a Consumer Reports for Consumer Reports.

Re: Tesla shares dive after Consumer Reports yanks recommendation for Model S

#178

Post by oldmanjay » Wed, Oct 21, 2015, 1:37 AM UTC

nickbauman wrote: post #154

toddmorey wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear you, but it's important to note that it appears that Mercedes (a storied German luxury car with proven technology) currently has an even a lower reliability rating. That makes me think it's likely more than just company age and experience, I think there is something about a company's risk tolerance and how it relates to their eagerness to implement new tech. As the article states, the blander "appliance-like"…

Shocking as it is (since I write software for a living) I buy only used cars with as few options as possible. All manual transmission, locks, windows and doors. I don't even have A/C in one of my two cars. Owning a car in America is like a tax: you need a car to have a meaningful participation in the economy. So while I admire Tesla's technology, through this lens I can't imagine buying one in this lifetime.

I haven't owned a car since the 90s and I participate in the economy just fine. It's certainly more convenient to own a car, but you way overstated that

Re: Tesla shares dive after Consumer Reports yanks recommendation for Model S

#179

Post by encoderer » Wed, Oct 21, 2015, 1:41 AM UTC

dragontamer wrote: post #166

encoderer wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Home solar is more valuable with an attached battery. Without it, most setups as sold will shutoff if your home loses grid power. A battery is not the only way to solve this but it's the best solution if you can afford it.

But that's not what people use Solar Panels for. They use Solar Panels to reduce (or even negate) electricity costs. Spending tens of thousands of dollars on batteries that only last a few hours when grid-power is lost is not a luxury the typical person can afford. But solar panels that are cheaper (and provide revenue through net-metering) will revolutionize the energy industry. The average homeowner uses 30 kW-hrs…

I have home solar. I'm sharing my experience. With a small battery, your solar power will continue to function if separated from the grid. I'm not sure what the argument is. I installed my system without a battery. I don't have a battery installed today. But what I said is, I find home solar to be more valuable with a battery.

Re: Tesla shares dive after Consumer Reports yanks recommendation for Model S

#180

Post by dcgoss » Wed, Oct 21, 2015, 1:43 AM UTC

rev_bird wrote: post #174

I've read most of this stuff before and am still excited to get a Tesla once a more reasonably priced one comes out. One thing keeps bugging me, though: If I wanted to get up tomorrow morning and drive across the country in a gas car, I could do it no problem. When I run out of fuel after ~325 miles, I just stop for 10 minutes at a gas station and head back out on the road. With a Tesla, I need to carefully plan out…

http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger has all the information you need. Realistically, an hour is the higher end of the waiting time - you can get significant range in fractions of that time. Additionally, the navigation software on the Tesla will automatically route your road trip through Superchargers, so you don't have to calculate where you need to stop.