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Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

nytimes.com

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Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#71

Post by 3pt14159 »

dijit wrote: post #40
yc1010 wrote: post #12

I was born in the Soviet Union during its dying years back then everyone knew the system was corrupt, inefficient and basically a pile of bullshit and thankfully it all fell apart. I still remember having to queue hours to get bread from bakery, and not seeing toilet paper, milk or meat for some time... Anyone who wants to go back to those days is insane imho :( My parents and older generation of relatives mostly wat…

I have an inverse story from yours. I'm a citizen and former resident of the UK, the UK for many reasons has a very loving relationship to the US, our young people are fashioned by the image of Television, and more than half of all English speaking entertaining media is american. We like America/Americans, by default before we learn politics. I travelled to the US in 2013, and to Russia the same year. What I saw was…

We're different. Part of American foreign policy is that "truth is the best propaganda" not the only propaganda, mind you, but the best.

The West also does have a policy of expanding liberal democracies and integrating them into a world trade frame work. Cases where we don't follow this policy is in areas where we're afraid of a counter weight emerging.

For example, the Middle Eastern policy is one where we foster instability to keep the Arab / Muslim world from unifying. Yes of course the war in Iraq is a travesty, but in America and the West in general we know when we get into tragic wars. To the point where even Jeb Bush has admitted that the war was a mistake.

The Russian mindset is different. It's more... brutal? I'm struggling for the right word. But if you look at Russian war doctrine during the cold war and (especially) World War 2, you see this apparatus that is 100% ok with using logic that ends with millions of suffering countrymen. Where propaganda and killing political opponents is acceptable. Where sending a man into space even though your scientists tell you he won't make it back alive.

The West doesn't stand for this. We have our (sometimes blatant) propaganda like the rest of them, and we make mistakes, but our jails cells look nothing like those in most of the rest of the world and our press isn't nearly as controlled.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#72

Post by 3princip »

ckozlowski wrote: post #63
3princip wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I live in (South) Eastern Europe. The whole region is awash with puppet political elites and western backed/owned media. The result of that propaganda (which doesn't negate the existence of Russian propaganda or the bad experiences of ex-soviet block countries) in the wake of a victory in the cold-war is a very big reason for the current situation. Regarding wars and interventions, I'm not just talking about Af…

So aggressive in fact, that Vietnam is courting the U.S. and the Philippines is opening Subic Bay to the U.S. Navy again. "Yankee Go Home" indeed.

Yes, as a result of worsening relations with neighboring China. The US is aggressively pivoting to the Pacific and it's aimed at China.

Which was my initial point.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#73

Post by AlexandrB »

dmichulke wrote: post #9
knowaveragejoe wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To put the two in the same category is a bit much: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/04/russia-s-pr...

Well, one killed intentionally from 150k up to 600k people [0], the other one (if it was "him" and if it was intentionally) some 300. So not really the same category... [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War To be more specific: I don't see any of the features prcolaimed by the West (honest government, no interference in other country's business, avoid civilian kills) upheld by themselves. Also to note, I don't t…

> Well, one killed intentionally from 150k up to 600k people [0], the other one (if it was "him" and if it was intentionally) some 300.

Can't tell if you're joking or just don't know anything about the region. The Second Chechen War under Putin claimed some 25,0000 civilian lives [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#74

Post by leaveyou »

3princip wrote: post #35
Avalaxy wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a fallacy. NATO is being invited by these countries. Eastern European countries are basically begging for NATO protection. What Russia does there is pretty different, they invide a sovereign country that doesn't want them there. Of course if you're talking about the useless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan you're right.

Well, I live in (South) Eastern Europe. The whole region is awash with puppet political elites and western backed/owned media. The result of that propaganda (which doesn't negate the existence of Russian propaganda or the bad experiences of ex-soviet block countries) in the wake of a victory in the cold-war is a very big reason for the current situation. Regarding wars and interventions, I'm not just talking about Af…

You must be Serbian :) (I'm Romanian). It's impossible to be neutral in Central or Eastern Europe. You can't trust the West because of the war with NATO; we can't trust Russia because of Moldova/Transnistria conflict and the feeling that Putin would love to spread us in Siberia like his idol(Stalin of course) did with other inconveniently placed nations (including some unlucky Moldovans). I really hope NATO and Russia will not use Romania and Serbia against each other. There is zero support now in Romania (and in Serbia too I guess) for a conflict like that but hey, speaking of the omnipresent propaganda, anything is possible right ?.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#75

Post by wolf550e »

ctdonath wrote: post #33
yc1010 wrote: post #12

I was born in the Soviet Union during its dying years back then everyone knew the system was corrupt, inefficient and basically a pile of bullshit and thankfully it all fell apart. I still remember having to queue hours to get bread from bakery, and not seeing toilet paper, milk or meat for some time... Anyone who wants to go back to those days is insane imho :( My parents and older generation of relatives mostly wat…

Can you elaborate on differences/similarities between that system being a "corrupt, inefficient pile of BS" driven by propaganda, vs the socialistic "government should take care of everyone, by redistributing wealth" prominently posted in HN discussions (a la "guaranteed basic income", "reduced work weeks", "free healthcare/education/etc", "everyone has a right to _____ which others earned", etc - all requiring a dom…

A given level of technology allows a county with given resources (e.g. petroleum, good engineers, conquered peoples being exploited far away, etc.) to have some total amount of wealth. The ruling class will give the bottom 99% some part of the wealth (not 99%, but hopefully 50%) to keep them subdued.

The closer technology is to Star Trek's replicators, the more realistic free housing, food, utilities are. In such a society, people are by default artists, not farmers or workers. The people who becomes doctors and teachers and do not get compensated by their patients or students, need to be compensated by the government which needs to have something people want.

In the USSR, people spent most of their money, time and energy just hustling for the basic necessities.

Note: I was born in Leningrad, but know of life there only from my parents.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#76

Post by ajuc »

ctdonath wrote: post #33
yc1010 wrote: post #12

I was born in the Soviet Union during its dying years back then everyone knew the system was corrupt, inefficient and basically a pile of bullshit and thankfully it all fell apart. I still remember having to queue hours to get bread from bakery, and not seeing toilet paper, milk or meat for some time... Anyone who wants to go back to those days is insane imho :( My parents and older generation of relatives mostly wat…

Can you elaborate on differences/similarities between that system being a "corrupt, inefficient pile of BS" driven by propaganda, vs the socialistic "government should take care of everyone, by redistributing wealth" prominently posted in HN discussions (a la "guaranteed basic income", "reduced work weeks", "free healthcare/education/etc", "everyone has a right to _____ which others earned", etc - all requiring a dom…

Working electricity, sewers, courts, police, and road netowork all require "a dominating government taking what isn't theirs to take" on the same level that free healthcare and university education do.

I was a kid in 80s in communist Poland. It was shitty place, with a lot of absurd propaganda nobody (including the people making a living spewing it, or beating up the protesters) believed. Free education and healthcare had nothing to do with it.

Main differences between communism and modern social democracies:

- independent organisations were banned or discriminated, now they are encouraged

- people were paid to spy on each other with the REAL money (you couldn't buy a car in a month with any amount of money, but if you told the right person that your neighbor listens to radio free europa and prints leaflets - you could get one no problem) - think this one through - no matter how good brain surgeon or rocket scientist or nobel prize writer you are - you won't get a car unless you wait for 10 or 20 years. Spying on your neighbors (or knowing the right people and doing them favours) can solve this in a week. Consider the incentives this sets up throught the whole society.

- there was just one employer (the state)

- social trust was nonexistent - you could only trust your family

- you had to apply for a permission to leave the country, and often when they gave you that permission you had to sign with secret service that you are a spy - so they can later blackmail you with it

I see no reason to think policies like free education till M.A. are in any way connected to these problems, since Poland had free education and healthcare both now and during communism, yet we don't do the bad things I listed anymore.

For the record - I didn't downvoted you and I don't understand why somebody woulld do that for asking a question.

BTW: free university education seems like much better than paid, because as a kid you work harder in school for better grades to go to better university. As a kid of poor parents in system with paid universities you just can't work hard enough to go to Harward (well there are stipends I guess, so they do see this problem).

As a parent it works too - in paid system you spend more time at work to afford better education for your kids. In free system - you teach your kids more so they get better grades and go to a better university. IMHO it's obvious which system sets up the incentives better.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#78

Post by ctlby »

ctdonath wrote: post #33
yc1010 wrote: post #12

I was born in the Soviet Union during its dying years back then everyone knew the system was corrupt, inefficient and basically a pile of bullshit and thankfully it all fell apart. I still remember having to queue hours to get bread from bakery, and not seeing toilet paper, milk or meat for some time... Anyone who wants to go back to those days is insane imho :( My parents and older generation of relatives mostly wat…

Can you elaborate on differences/similarities between that system being a "corrupt, inefficient pile of BS" driven by propaganda, vs the socialistic "government should take care of everyone, by redistributing wealth" prominently posted in HN discussions (a la "guaranteed basic income", "reduced work weeks", "free healthcare/education/etc", "everyone has a right to _____ which others earned", etc - all requiring a dom…

I laughed when I read this, but there is indeed a difference. Here, a meaningful portion of your confiscated earnings is distributed to your fellow citizens. Moreover, the means of confiscation is predictable, as is the degree. In Russia, you'll get fleeced just the same. However, your money will primarily line the pockets of those doing the taking.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#79

Post by knowaveragejoe »

3princip wrote: post #65
yc1010 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah "America does it" strawman, there must be a handbook on internet trolling or something made back in the old country now. Every single time, every single time, same crap gets regurgitated. "Why are we invading yet another country? Oh because America did it too!" "Why are our rights being eroded? Oh because America does it!" and so on... I been back to Russia and crisscrossed the US over the last decade, I would pic…

Well, it's fine if you call out Russia on principle, as long as that principle applies to the US as well. But you seem to suggest that the US is a nicer place to live, so it's fine that they've waged aggressive wars all over the globe for more than half a century?

The US is, without question, a nicer place to live than Russia. If you think otherwise, you've either never been to the US or you haven't seen the level of poverty that is widespread outside Russia's major cities. There are small pockets of prosperity in Russia, outside of those, nobody acclimated to western standards of living would consider them equatable.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#80

Post by johnnydoebk »

snitko wrote: post #43
yc1010 wrote: post #12

I was born in the Soviet Union during its dying years back then everyone knew the system was corrupt, inefficient and basically a pile of bullshit and thankfully it all fell apart. I still remember having to queue hours to get bread from bakery, and not seeing toilet paper, milk or meat for some time... Anyone who wants to go back to those days is insane imho :( My parents and older generation of relatives mostly wat…

While all you are saying is true, I also think the very same kind of propaganda, but actually much more efficient, is happening in Europe and the US. People go absolutely insane if you start questioning democracy, social programs or anything that a state does. When you point out to them how internet or cellphone networks or taxis or a number of other things is actually cheaper in Russia (or in eastern Europe in gener…

>> When you point out to them how internet or cellphone networks or taxis or a number of other things is actually cheaper in Russia (or in eastern Europe in general) because of the lack of regulations or government interference, they go in denial.

Cool. I'm from a small 3rd world country. Just as in Russia the police officers sometimes rape detainees with bottles of champagne, there is literally no justice, but lots other funny things.

But our prices are lower than those in Russia. And it's OK if you are not paying taxes here. So what? Does it mean the rest of the world must be envy?

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