Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#61

Post by yc1010 » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 1:15 PM UTC

forgotpwtomain wrote: post #54

yc1010 wrote: post #12

I was born in the Soviet Union during its dying years back then everyone knew the system was corrupt, inefficient and basically a pile of bullshit and thankfully it all fell apart. I still remember having to queue hours to get bread from bakery, and not seeing toilet paper, milk or meat for some time... Anyone who wants to go back to those days is insane imho :( My parents and older generation of relatives mostly wat…

> inefficient and basically a pile of bullshit and thankfully it all fell apart You must have never lived in Russia post Soviet Union nor experienced how much worse it is to be spouting this crap. No one believes Putin is a genius - but in fact the country was so badly ruined under Yeltsin and Oligarchical capitalism-free-for-all that Putin appeared to people as the best possible option of these.

I was there till the middle of 90s i see the worst of the post-collapse, yes things got worse but Putin is not some genius savior who rode in on a white horse to save Russia from evil capitalism as is the prevailing narrative nowadays. Rising oil prices and modernization of the oil industry by a certain oligarch whose company was then taken from him by Putin is where most of the money came from, money then used by Putin to grab more power.

What followed the USSR was a wild west free for all bringing out the worst of capitalism, with even more corruption and organised crime taking over daily lives of just about everyone. It is tragic and sad that Russia could not transition to a modern economy like some Eastern European countries done.

Putin loves to push the story that without him Russia will go back to the bad old days of "democracy and capitalism" of the 90s, and that his way is the only way forward. The whole thing is awful similar to what was argued in Germany in 30s btw.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#62

Post by trymas » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 1:15 PM UTC

vbezhenar wrote: post #24

Honestly, I believe more to people who did those missiles, than to some random Dutch experts (with all respect, of course). Almaz-Antey did their own investigation, they did experiments, they have very expert knowledge about those missiles, so it's very important not to throw away their facts. They might be influenced by Russia politics, of course, but Netherlands, as part of Europe, definitely follows anti-Russian p…

Theoreticaly - yes, practically - no.

As a person who lives in an ex-Soviet country, which is not Russia, many who have not seen Soviet/Russian reality distortion field (aka political lies) can be too naive to believe them.

Russia, when it's convenient to them likes to exploit western liberalism and naivety. Like here, they (Russian) say that their experts, who know best in the world how BUK missile launcher system works in every aspect, concluded, that Russia did not do it.

Though, I believe that Russia's underground political tactics have not much change from the times of KGB. Possibly, those Russian experts were made (by government agencies) to 'investigate' and produce 'report'. Also do not ignore the fact, that Russians gave their report at the same time as Dutch report was released. The goal was, that the people would see Russian 'report' instead of the Dutch one. The 'dictatorship' cannot let people doubt that they do not have a enemies in the west.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#63

Post by ckozlowski » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 1:15 PM UTC

3princip wrote: post #35

Avalaxy wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a fallacy. NATO is being invited by these countries. Eastern European countries are basically begging for NATO protection. What Russia does there is pretty different, they invide a sovereign country that doesn't want them there. Of course if you're talking about the useless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan you're right.

Well, I live in (South) Eastern Europe. The whole region is awash with puppet political elites and western backed/owned media. The result of that propaganda (which doesn't negate the existence of Russian propaganda or the bad experiences of ex-soviet block countries) in the wake of a victory in the cold-war is a very big reason for the current situation. Regarding wars and interventions, I'm not just talking about Af…

So aggressive in fact, that Vietnam is courting the U.S. and the Philippines is opening Subic Bay to the U.S. Navy again.

"Yankee Go Home" indeed.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#64

Post by datalist » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 1:16 PM UTC

smcl wrote: post #53

3princip wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many planes were shot down by the US (Iranian planes to be specific)? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

This a lovely example of the irritating "whataboutism" that clouds these sorts of discussions and bring nothing to the table. Iranian Air Flight 655 has nothing to do with the article or this discussion.

To be fair igor_a started dragging unrelated what-if scenarions about Russia into the discussion.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#65

Post by 3princip » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 1:17 PM UTC

yc1010 wrote: post #55

dijit wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have an inverse story from yours. I'm a citizen and former resident of the UK, the UK for many reasons has a very loving relationship to the US, our young people are fashioned by the image of Television, and more than half of all English speaking entertaining media is american. We like America/Americans, by default before we learn politics. I travelled to the US in 2013, and to Russia the same year. What I saw was…

Ah "America does it" strawman, there must be a handbook on internet trolling or something made back in the old country now. Every single time, every single time, same crap gets regurgitated. "Why are we invading yet another country? Oh because America did it too!" "Why are our rights being eroded? Oh because America does it!" and so on... I been back to Russia and crisscrossed the US over the last decade, I would pic…

Well, it's fine if you call out Russia on principle, as long as that principle applies to the US as well.

But you seem to suggest that the US is a nicer place to live, so it's fine that they've waged aggressive wars all over the globe for more than half a century?

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#66

Post by igor_a » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 1:17 PM UTC

3princip wrote: post #44

igor_a wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It was regular war zone with dozens other planes shoot down" with dozens of Ukrainian planes shoot down. (who shot them? where did they got weapons for that? where did they got skills for that?) "Ukraine army shoot down civil airliner with 90 people on board just a few years ago" How many planes (korean planes to be specific) were shot down by USSR (that includes Russia)

How many planes were shot down by the US (Iranian planes to be specific)? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

Yep they shot it and admitted it. It's a big difference

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#67

Post by ayepif » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 1:19 PM UTC

Avalaxy wrote: post #50

qwerta wrote: post #27

Why Russians should not believe it? - Ukraine army shoot down civil airliner with 90 people on board just a few years ago [1] - It was regular war zone with dozens other planes shoot down [2]. - It happened on Ukraine territory, most likely by Ukraine citizens. - Buk 9M38 is not Russian missile, but Soviet (that includes Ukraine). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812 [2] https://en.wikipedia…

> Ukraine army shoot down civil airliner with 90 people on board just a few years ago What does that have to do with this incident? > It was regular war zone with dozens other planes shoot down This contradicts your point. The rebels didn't have planes, so all planes that were shot down were Ukrainian planes that were shot down by the rebels. > It happened on Ukraine territory, most likely by Ukraine citizens. What p…

Not to detract from you valid points (since I think these are important questions to ask) but the rebels do have a small airforce.

Source: http://www.ibtimes.com/pro-russian-rebels-have-air-force-mad...

"Kiev has claimed that Ukrainian troops have destroyed one separatist L-39 military trainer aircraft, two An-2 agricultural aircraft, one Yak-52 trainer airplane and four Mi-24 attack helicopters -- the latter being the most dangerous aircraft in the list, and the only ones built expressly for an armed role."

Wikipedia also has a list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_Unite...

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#68

Post by Grue3 » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 1:19 PM UTC

richardwigley wrote: post #16

Odd and interesting to read. I would have guessed a larger percentage of Russians got their views online. I would also think that most online news written in Russian would be under control of state media. In which case, if they did start to use the Internet to find news then nothing would change. Maybe a Russian nytimes.com?

It's the same thing online. The law states that all websites in Russian language that have more than 3000 visitors per day have to be licensed and registered as mass media, or they get shut off. Lots of anti-Putin websites like grani.ru, navalny.ru are completely blocked.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#69

Post by ctlby » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 1:20 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #40

yc1010 wrote: post #12

I was born in the Soviet Union during its dying years back then everyone knew the system was corrupt, inefficient and basically a pile of bullshit and thankfully it all fell apart. I still remember having to queue hours to get bread from bakery, and not seeing toilet paper, milk or meat for some time... Anyone who wants to go back to those days is insane imho :( My parents and older generation of relatives mostly wat…

I have an inverse story from yours. I'm a citizen and former resident of the UK, the UK for many reasons has a very loving relationship to the US, our young people are fashioned by the image of Television, and more than half of all English speaking entertaining media is american. We like America/Americans, by default before we learn politics. I travelled to the US in 2013, and to Russia the same year. What I saw was…

A handful of conversations and a couple months of travel will not give a Westerner an understanding of Russia. The vast majority USSR emigrants under a certain age (that is, people truly familiar with both systems) would disagree with you in the strongest possible terms. I'm one of them. There is no moral equivalence.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#70

Post by igor_a » Fri, Oct 16, 2015, 1:21 PM UTC

igor_a wrote: post #66

3princip wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many planes were shot down by the US (Iranian planes to be specific)? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

Yep they shot it and admitted it. It's a big difference

I meant difference not about the fact that somebody shot the plane, but the difference in reaction.

Why Russia blocked tribunal? What about all that clowning around investigation, throwing a new weird version about accident (what about the version that goes about frozen bodies or version about shooting down the plane by Ukrainian Su-25 that can't reach that altitude? All of this went through Russian state TV channels and other state people (Investigation Committee etc.)