Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 123 posts

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#51

Post by yc1010 »

ctdonath wrote: post #33
yc1010 wrote: post #12

I was born in the Soviet Union during its dying years back then everyone knew the system was corrupt, inefficient and basically a pile of bullshit and thankfully it all fell apart. I still remember having to queue hours to get bread from bakery, and not seeing toilet paper, milk or meat for some time... Anyone who wants to go back to those days is insane imho :( My parents and older generation of relatives mostly wat…

Can you elaborate on differences/similarities between that system being a "corrupt, inefficient pile of BS" driven by propaganda, vs the socialistic "government should take care of everyone, by redistributing wealth" prominently posted in HN discussions (a la "guaranteed basic income", "reduced work weeks", "free healthcare/education/etc", "everyone has a right to _____ which others earned", etc - all requiring a dom…

It was never communism back in USSR, it was authoritarianism where all power flowed to the Kremlin marching under the Socialist banner, 30 years its the same shit but to the tune of Nationalism. The economy still remains resource extraction bound (more so now), corruption goes all the way to the top (see Sochi).

One quote from my mother sums it up when we moved here in middle of 90s when she learned that in Europe this thing called welfare exists "So we were building Socialism for 70 years, and they had it here all along"

BTW they didnt fall for propaganda back then, it was mocked if anything, but the modern take on it by the Russian state controlled media is actually incredible to behold in how it works, hell just look at some of the replies above that my post attracted to see it in action.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#52

Post by Avalaxy »

vbezhenar wrote: post #31
richardwigley wrote: post #16

Odd and interesting to read. I would have guessed a larger percentage of Russians got their views online. I would also think that most online news written in Russian would be under control of state media. In which case, if they did start to use the Internet to find news then nothing would change. Maybe a Russian nytimes.com?

I don't think that majority of young Russians even watch TV. Most of young people getting information from Internet. And there are many different points of views in Russian media space. Though main news sources are heavily influenced by Kremlin, that's true. But those who want to find an alternative point of view, will do that without any problems.

Yea, except for when you're looking for wikipedia, reddit or github, right?

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#53

Post by smcl »

3princip wrote: post #44
igor_a wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It was regular war zone with dozens other planes shoot down" with dozens of Ukrainian planes shoot down. (who shot them? where did they got weapons for that? where did they got skills for that?) "Ukraine army shoot down civil airliner with 90 people on board just a few years ago" How many planes (korean planes to be specific) were shot down by USSR (that includes Russia)

How many planes were shot down by the US (Iranian planes to be specific)? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

This a lovely example of the irritating "whataboutism" that clouds these sorts of discussions and bring nothing to the table.

Iranian Air Flight 655 has nothing to do with the article or this discussion.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#54

Post by forgotpwtomain »

yc1010 wrote: post #12

I was born in the Soviet Union during its dying years back then everyone knew the system was corrupt, inefficient and basically a pile of bullshit and thankfully it all fell apart. I still remember having to queue hours to get bread from bakery, and not seeing toilet paper, milk or meat for some time... Anyone who wants to go back to those days is insane imho :( My parents and older generation of relatives mostly wat…

> inefficient and basically a pile of bullshit and thankfully it all fell apart

You must have never lived in Russia post Soviet Union nor experienced how much worse it is to be spouting this crap. No one believes Putin is a genius - but in fact the country was so badly ruined under Yeltsin and Oligarchical capitalism-free-for-all that Putin appeared to people as the best possible option of these.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#55

Post by yc1010 »

dijit wrote: post #40
yc1010 wrote: post #12

I was born in the Soviet Union during its dying years back then everyone knew the system was corrupt, inefficient and basically a pile of bullshit and thankfully it all fell apart. I still remember having to queue hours to get bread from bakery, and not seeing toilet paper, milk or meat for some time... Anyone who wants to go back to those days is insane imho :( My parents and older generation of relatives mostly wat…

I have an inverse story from yours. I'm a citizen and former resident of the UK, the UK for many reasons has a very loving relationship to the US, our young people are fashioned by the image of Television, and more than half of all English speaking entertaining media is american. We like America/Americans, by default before we learn politics. I travelled to the US in 2013, and to Russia the same year. What I saw was…

Ah "America does it" strawman, there must be a handbook on internet trolling or something made back in the old country now. Every single time, every single time, same crap gets regurgitated.

"Why are we invading yet another country? Oh because America did it too!"

"Why are our rights being eroded? Oh because America does it!"

and so on...

I been back to Russia and crisscrossed the US over the last decade, I would pick the US for all its problems over Russia any day as a place to live. Anyways I am quite happy here in Europe for now.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#56

Post by knowaveragejoe »

dmichulke wrote: post #9
knowaveragejoe wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To put the two in the same category is a bit much: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/04/russia-s-pr...

Well, one killed intentionally from 150k up to 600k people [0], the other one (if it was "him" and if it was intentionally) some 300. So not really the same category... [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War To be more specific: I don't see any of the features prcolaimed by the West (honest government, no interference in other country's business, avoid civilian kills) upheld by themselves. Also to note, I don't t…

I fail to see how we went from comparing media in the two spheres of influence and whether it's propaganda to this comparison of specific actions cherry-picked from history.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#57

Post by oleks »

qwerta wrote: post #27

Why Russians should not believe it? - Ukraine army shoot down civil airliner with 90 people on board just a few years ago [1] - It was regular war zone with dozens other planes shoot down [2]. - It happened on Ukraine territory, most likely by Ukraine citizens. - Buk 9M38 is not Russian missile, but Soviet (that includes Ukraine). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812 [2] https://en.wikipedia…

- Just because that they can, doesn't mean that they would.

- The list lists Ukrainian aircraft lost during the conflict, not the separatist/Russian aircraft.

- Yes, separatist-held territory is Ukraine territory, and separatists are (at times) Ukrainian citizens, although Ukraine currently cannot guarantee the safety of its, or other citizens in the separatist-held territory.

- As to the last point, who knows. Who produced what, and sold where in the post-Soviet world is a lot harder to debunk than the publicly exposed news.

Russia never took on, and still does not take on its moral obligation to proactively control its border with the conflict zone. Similarly, Ukraine didn't take appropriate action to ban flights over the conflict zone. Ukraine did take action - when will Russia? Both are "guilty" in the case of MH17, due to their inaction.

"There are risks and costs to action. But they are far less than the long range risks of comfortable inaction." - John F. Kennedy.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#58

Post by 3princip »

korisnik wrote: post #46
3princip wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're Croatian I guess, so your country was basically created with US/NATO assistance.

No. My country was created by the democratic independence referendum of 1991, in accordance with Yugoslavia's constitution. Altho sadly, after the declaration of independence and its international acceptance, a guy named Milosevic who committed coup d'etats in Montenegro, Kosovo, Vojvodina and attempted a coup d'etat in Slovenia decided that he disagreed with our independence and started a bloody war. But thanks for…

Slovenia, sorry, my mistake.

Yes I remember when your militia shot unarmed surrendering conscripts, using weapons provided by NATO members. All of which was a strong catalyst for the bloody wars which followed in neighboring republics.

Re: Why Russia’s Alternate History of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Matters

#59

Post by AlexandrB »

snitko wrote: post #43
yc1010 wrote: post #12

I was born in the Soviet Union during its dying years back then everyone knew the system was corrupt, inefficient and basically a pile of bullshit and thankfully it all fell apart. I still remember having to queue hours to get bread from bakery, and not seeing toilet paper, milk or meat for some time... Anyone who wants to go back to those days is insane imho :( My parents and older generation of relatives mostly wat…

While all you are saying is true, I also think the very same kind of propaganda, but actually much more efficient, is happening in Europe and the US. People go absolutely insane if you start questioning democracy, social programs or anything that a state does. When you point out to them how internet or cellphone networks or taxis or a number of other things is actually cheaper in Russia (or in eastern Europe in gener…

You have no idea what you're talking about. Corruption at all levels of government is rampant in Russia. It's the norm to have to pay off multiple officials when trying to get something built/renovated.

Russia doesn't give a fuck about its own people, to the Russian government lives are expendable if needed [1]. The alcoholism and suicide rate in Russia is monstrous [2], and is probably caused by the lack of opportunity.

> In my book, that's almost what a communist state with price controls looks like.

No. A communist state looks like the murder of millions for the sake of "security"[3].

> I'd like my kids to grow up in Russia. I like it that, at least when it comes to personal income, the tax rate is 13%...

Actually it's even better than you think. 13% of $0 is still $0.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Russia

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism

Post reply on HN