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#FFFFFF Diversity

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Re: #FFFFFF Diversity

#51
post #15

Am I the only one who think it's perfectly logical that the speaker ratio is the same as the ratio of the tech population? Of course we should try hard to find minority speakers just to be proactive since we do have a diversty problem. However, when you go to a conference you want to see the best speakers and then it's only logical that a minority is less represented since, you know, there are less good speakers to c…

> if we forcibly try to overrepresent every minority where do we end up?

I am so tired of this sort of fantasy catastrophe based on a fantasy exaggeration of of a reasonable point.

If your question is, "What would happen if we reversed the polarity on the diversity-suppression machine and suddenly conferences were as diverse as they had been previously vanilla?" then the answer is: the conference would be about the same, but with a different set of speakers.

Heck, let's try it. The industry has been unusually straight white male for, what, 30 years? [1] Let's try 30 years of conferences that are exactly as biased but in the opposite direction. In fact, let's just try 3 years and see how it goes. My guess: lots of good conferences and a much more diverse set of people joining the field and not quitting the field because they're tired of dealing with bias.

> I wouldn't go to such a conference since the probability of bad talks would be too high.

You understand, don't you, that your implicit assumption here is that there just aren't enough competent non-straight-white-dude speakers to fill out a conference list?

In my experience, the conferences that work really hard on diversity are better. Why? Because to get a diverse speaker base, you have to work really hard on outreach. You're going out beyond the usual suspects. You're finding people who wanted to speak but had never got a shot. You're finding the people who never even thought about speaking but would be great.

[1] http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-...

Re: #FFFFFF Diversity

#52
I wanted to preface this with a "as a minority", but no.

As a human, I feel we are driving wedges where we should be finding common ground. And the biggest culprits seem to be the ones who have the most to win if they didn't do so.

If you come from a different background, that's great. It means you may have different ideas to solve a problem, to create something, to make art, music, life.

But that should be part of who we are. Our culture.

"I am a person from this country. I grew up playing these instruments, reading these stories, eating this food" says what you have done in your life, what you know, but it doesn't dictate what you are, or put a box around you that can segregate others.

When we put labels on ourselves, or say, "you can't possibly understand where I've come from" we're saying that others aren't "privileged" enough to have had their own experiences that allow them to relate; that you're life is more interesting and important than theirs, as you feel you're at a different level, or they're too ignorant to understand. The irony is amazing.

I wish this woman didn't speak as if she is a voice for women, or black people, or "people of color" (another odd phrase, as even my white friends can be darker than me), because it seems she only speaks for herself.

Women get a celebration, she shits on it. What if Indians got a celebration? She mentions brown, but talks about being black.

Unless she was born in India, she wouldn't understand life coming from anywhere in India. How does having "black" skin make her relate to Indians? What about other brown people. Did she live her childhood in Bolivia?

To end with, I must say I hate this kind of thing. It makes "minorities" look bad. I don't want to be seen as something that needs help. I want to be seen as somebody who is exciting, who makes fun things and is intelligent. If you want to eat delicious food for my home, learn about the culture or history, then just ask. But that is part of who I am. It's not what I am. What I am is me.

Re: #FFFFFF Diversity

#53
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That point you've apparently missed is that current hiring practises among some companies can be discriminatory. There are hiring managers out there who won't hire a female developer because they're just outright sexist. Quotas get introduced because there are brilliant minority developers who get passed over because they're in the minority. All that said though, I don't believe there's any actual evidence that peopl…

>Quotas get introduced because there are brilliant minority developers who get passed over because they're in the minority. Any evidence (other than anecdotal) for this claim? The only reason I have ever seen for quotas is that the overall distribution is skewed, and therefore it must be discrimination.

There is plenty of evidence for hiring discrimination of all sorts. Oceans of it. For example:

http://www.nber.org/papers/w9873

http://www.nber.org/papers/w5903

It happens in all sorts of industries and across a variety of axes. I've heard some argue that no, tech is different, that we're special, special snowflakes. But they have no evidence to back that, just feelings that bias is something only other people do.

Re: #FFFFFF Diversity

#54
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but if we forcibly try to overrepresent every minority where do we end up? "50% black trans women speakers"? I wouldn't go to such a conference since the probability of bad talks would be too hig\ You end up with hiring quotas in companies, where a less-than-competent candidate can be hired instead of a competent one because he/she belongs to a minority. Will the bet on minority over competence will yield greater g…

That point you've apparently missed is that current hiring practises among some companies can be discriminatory. There are hiring managers out there who won't hire a female developer because they're just outright sexist. Quotas get introduced because there are brilliant minority developers who get passed over because they're in the minority. All that said though, I don't believe there's any actual evidence that peopl…

There are hiring managers out there who won't hire a female developer because they're just outright sexist.

Do these people actually really exist in 2015, and are there organisations that would allow them to behave like that? I've known quite a few hiring managers, and some of them have definitely made stupid comments about "how nice it'd be to have a hot girl on the team" (though equally they might also make stupid comments about hiring graduates - of either gender - to make cups of tea), but none of them, to my knowledge, would ever have not picked a female candidate who was technically up to the task purely because she was a woman.

Have I just led a sheltered existence?

(I guess I'm talking here about SMEs and larger companies; I suppose if you're a tiny company run by a couple of sexist pigs, then any kind of behaviour is allowed to stand.)

Re: #FFFFFF Diversity

#55
post #29

"I can’t support a conference that doesn’t seem to understand the value and importance of intersectionality and representation." Doesn't this just promote the idea that people of different ethnicities really are that different? Why on earth is skin colour "representation" an important factor anywhere? I mean don't discriminate but how is this an argument? This just promotes the wrong idea that people of different eth…

> Doesn't this just promote the idea that people of different ethnicities really are that different? This is pretty much the "but we're a meritocracy" argument, and it's unfortunately wrong. Having worked extensively with the behavioural science behind things like hiring processes, performance reviews, etc. I can conclusively tell you that we do not live in a meritocracy. People get discriminated against, constantly.…

I don't think this is really related to the comment you're replying to. Whether or not discrimination exists is not the same as whether or not "the value and importance of intersectionality and representation" (article quote) is something we should consciously pursue. How does that not carry a bias towards reverse discrimination? I agree with the OP, I'm scratching my head about how the article simultaneously argues that we need to treat everyone equally, but also need to tally their intersectionality combo bonus points and force an equal "representation." You can either argue for ignoring all labels or for special label-based treatments, not both.

To take it into a perhaps more productive but related area, how would you say we should overcome bias? It seems to me if you try too hard, you will just introduce another form of bias.

Re: #FFFFFF Diversity

#56
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Quotas get introduced because there are brilliant minority developers who get passed over because they're in the minority. Any evidence (other than anecdotal) for this claim? The only reason I have ever seen for quotas is that the overall distribution is skewed, and therefore it must be discrimination.

Common sense would tell you it does happen. It only takes one guy who'd rather hire a man than a woman and one qualified woman applying for that job. I don't think it's a meaningfully large part of the explanation for the skewed distribution. I think there are deeper systemic issues for that. However, I don't think I've seen more than a handful of people say that quotas are in place because of discrimination either.…

That's a good list, but I think you have left out subtle discrimination. Things like the IAT show that there's a great deal of implicit racial bias in the US. [1]

I also have never heard of a company actually having quotas. What I have heard is people gathering statistics and saying, "Hey, this looks pretty bad. What are we doing that might cause this? What can we do to fix our [generally unconscious and unnoticed] biases in our hiring processes?"

[1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2014/12/08/ac...

Re: #FFFFFF Diversity

#57
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wouldn't go to such a conference since the probability of bad talks would be too high. Why?

Because only a small % of all people in tech are good speakers. Having a smaller population to choose from would mean a higher risk of putting a bad speaker on the lineup.

You're assuming that a) good-speakerness is a fixed quality, and b) that the speaker selection process is something like pulling bingo numbers. Neither is true.

Re: #FFFFFF Diversity

#58

I wanted to preface this with a "as a minority", but no. As a human, I feel we are driving wedges where we should be finding common ground. And the biggest culprits seem to be the ones who have the most to win if they didn't do so. If you come from a different background, that's great. It means you may have different ideas to solve a problem, to create something, to make art, music, life. But that should be part of w…

You know that brown people went through this years ago as did asians? We had to fight to be apart of society. Now we have the privelege of being "model minorities" while others don't.

She talks about being black because she is black and shes talking about her feelings and perspective. It's ignorant to dismiss that.

Unfortunately for many people of color. They dont have the same opportunities that a white or asian person would have so you cant understand their persoective so it's best to listen because there are thousands of examples out there. The more you listen to them the more youll learn.

And she's shitting on the industry for ignoring races while being inclusive to white women. It's obviously great that women are getting an opportunity but it's ignorant to ignore women of color.

Theyre speaking not because they have the most to win. Theyre speaking because they want to be equal, which they arent in the tech world and outside of it. they want to go from below equality to at equality, not above it.

Frankly, i'm embarassed when minorities speak from their privilege ignoring the fact that indians/asians have been through it until white america said "no no guys, these asians are cool". That hasnt happened with black people yet.

Re: #FFFFFF Diversity

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Doesn't this just promote the idea that people of different ethnicities really are that different? This is pretty much the "but we're a meritocracy" argument, and it's unfortunately wrong. Having worked extensively with the behavioural science behind things like hiring processes, performance reviews, etc. I can conclusively tell you that we do not live in a meritocracy. People get discriminated against, constantly.…

I don't think this is really related to the comment you're replying to. Whether or not discrimination exists is not the same as whether or not "the value and importance of intersectionality and representation" (article quote) is something we should consciously pursue. How does that not carry a bias towards reverse discrimination? I agree with the OP, I'm scratching my head about how the article simultaneously argues…

Be inclusive and not just try to hit quotas.

Re: #FFFFFF Diversity

#60
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That point you've apparently missed is that current hiring practises among some companies can be discriminatory. There are hiring managers out there who won't hire a female developer because they're just outright sexist. Quotas get introduced because there are brilliant minority developers who get passed over because they're in the minority. All that said though, I don't believe there's any actual evidence that peopl…

There are hiring managers out there who won't hire a female developer because they're just outright sexist. Do these people actually really exist in 2015, and are there organisations that would allow them to behave like that? I've known quite a few hiring managers, and some of them have definitely made stupid comments about "how nice it'd be to have a hot girl on the team" (though equally they might also make stupid…

It wouldnt be tolerated if it was spoken outright. Unfortunately its pretty easy for a hiring manager to dismiss someone officially because of something on her resume or in the interview officially, while being sexist or racist, or just having embedded biases in their head. Ive heard it often enough.
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