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Graffiti on ‘Homeland,’ Unnoticed by Producers, Calls Show Racist

nytimes.com

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Re: Graffiti on ‘Homeland,’ Unnoticed by Producers, Calls Show Racist

#151

Post by balls187 »

chris_wot wrote: post #146
balls187 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meanwhile, a Texas church burned the holy book of millions of Muslims. And Muslim (extremists?), killed 30 people in response, and resulted in a fatwa against Terry Jones. > What's your point? Artistic demonstration against the west, is (nearly) a right. Artistic expression against Muslims, is (nearly) a death sentence. --- It's a false equivalency to compare our (White Christian) nutjobs to their (Islam) nutjobs.

And yet you made your argument with a false equivalence. The street in Lebanon (Hamra Street) that was depicted as a hotbed of terrorist activity is a cosmopolitan, liberal road. In case you can't see the issue: the series treats all Arabs and Muslims as dangerous terrorists willing to kill any "infidel" at the drop of a hat. And yet that is because of extremists, which exist everywhere - like, for example, Terry Jon…

I see the issue, and I understand what the artists gripes are. They're valid.

I'm simply pointing out that subversive demonstration is a basic right under many standard western doctrines.

It certainly is not under many interpretations of Islam.

This is all generalized of course, as there are people in the US who believe US Flag Burning should be illegal, and Muslims artists that are against strict interpretations of Sharia law.

Re: Graffiti on ‘Homeland,’ Unnoticed by Producers, Calls Show Racist

#152

Post by dragonwriter »

stefantalpalaru wrote: post #144
dragonwriter wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, racism is discriminating based on (perceived) race, not merely the belief that race exists. (Which it manifestly does, as a cultural construct .) Nationality and ethnicity likewise exist as related, but usually distinct, cultural constructs to race, and we have different names for bigotry based on them. Though, obviously, the distinction between these forms of bigotry is somewhat nitpicky, and often not meaningfu…

> [...] the belief that race exists. (Which it manifestly does, as a cultural construct.) That's like saying that aliens exist as a cultural construct. Let's not mix reality and widely shared fantasies. How would you call the unscientific belief that races exist in the human species, if not "racism"? > a lot of time "racism" is used broadly to refer to bigotry based on race, ethnicity, or nationality True, just like…

> That's like saying that aliens exist as a cultural construct.

No, its not. Its more like saying color exists as a product of perception. Races are a categorization, categorizations do not inherently exist at all, they exist as products of mind only.

> How would you call the unscientific belief that races exist in the human species, if not "racism"?

If by that you mean the unscientific belief that the cultural perception of race has a direct correspondence to inherent biological feature of humans, I'd call it something like "the erroneous belief in biological race".

Its pretty much logically orthogonal to racism; racists are probably more likely to believe that biological race is a thing than non-racists, but its quite possible to be a racist without believing in biological race (if it weren't, bigotry against, e.g., nationality -- which doesn't have the problem of people mistaking for an inherent biological trait -- wouldn't be a thing. Heck, bigotry based on sexual orientation seems to be inversely correlated with the belief that it is an inherent biological feature.)

> Errors need to be pointed out, not accepted in silence, even if the hoi polloi will make you pay for it.

Well, yes, that's why I am pointing out the error of your mistaken confusion of the erroneous perception that race is an inherent biological feature with "racism", a term which has always referred to belief in the superiority or inferiority of particular races, not belief in the biological inherency of race.

Re: Graffiti on ‘Homeland,’ Unnoticed by Producers, Calls Show Racist

#153

Post by danans »

Archio wrote: post #2

I haven't seen Homeland past the first season - but can someone who has seen more shed light on the alleged "racism" of the show? Is the show actually racist in its depiction of Arab-speaking characters, or is this simply a manifestation of Hanlon's Razor - "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"?

I don't know about racist, but the show is quite dishonest in its depiction of an alliance between the Iranian government and Al-Qaeda, when in the real world the link is between Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and their respective sponsors in the Gulf Arab states (Saudi Arabia, etc.)

I enjoyed watching the show until they dropped that plot twist, then I rolled my eyes and quit. It's concerning because viewers who are less informed about the actual alignment of powers in the middle east may take the show's plot line as being inspired by reality, when it's fact it's far from it.

Re: Graffiti on ‘Homeland,’ Unnoticed by Producers, Calls Show Racist

#154

Post by rjsw »

anigbrowl wrote: post #112
vijayr wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am conflicted - on one hand it is a great hack, no doubt. But they also screwed over the producers, who trusted them and paid them for their work.

The producers are doing just fine. artistic subversion of commercial considerations is a norm in the arts industry; if anything, this gives an otherwise shallow piece of ideological entertainment some unintended cultural depth.

An older example of the same kind of thing could be Melrose Place [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melrose_Place#GALA_Committee

Re: Graffiti on ‘Homeland,’ Unnoticed by Producers, Calls Show Racist

#155

Post by ashwinaj »

intopieces wrote: post #148
ashwinaj wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why are the creators of the show absolved of their personal responsibility regarding the impact of their actions? Because they aren't democratically elected public officials, they're just making a TV show from private funding. And watching the TV show is optional. > If a company poisons the local reservoir with their chemical run-off, are they morally able to say, "Well, they shouldn't have drank that water. They k…

>And watching the TV show is optional. We're not talking about the viewers of the show, we're talking about the people (Muslims, Arabs, etc) who are affected by the people who choose to watch the show -- that is, the impact on the culture that racism has. >Would you propose to curtail the right to free speech? We already do. The FCC does this. But I'm not suggesting that there be a law against it -- though other coun…

> We're not talking about the viewers of the show, we're talking about the people (Muslims, Arabs, etc) who are affected by the people who choose to watch the show -- that is, the impact on the culture that racism has.

I agree, but I don't agree that this is the problem of the show's creators.

> Ah, but here we are: it is real life for millions of Muslims. Remember after 9/11 when Sikhs got beat up because people thought they were Muslims? Remember in the 60s when a black man couldn't get a hotel room in Atlanta?

So one of the solutions to solving fundamental societal problems is to criticize a TV show?

Re: Graffiti on ‘Homeland,’ Unnoticed by Producers, Calls Show Racist

#156

Post by [deleted] »

elif wrote: post #48
veeti wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the same episode, a drone strike kills tens of innocent people. If you think that is "propaganda", you obviously weren't paying any attention.

I won't attempt to address this show which I haven't seen, but in general, propaganda can function to normalize or justify the obscene. Through presenting two sides of an issue, it gives the illusion of honesty or fairness. Even if that strike was represented as a complete mistake with no justification, it has normalized drone strikes simply by exposing them as a thing you witness in sympathy from the comfort of your…

[deleted]

Re: Graffiti on ‘Homeland,’ Unnoticed by Producers, Calls Show Racist

#158

Post by PopeOfNope »

unknownzero wrote: post #21

This is the best hack I've seen on Hacker News in months and it doesn't even involve a computer. Great job to everyone involved in pulling it off, even if the casual viewers didn't notice.

Too bad they didn't take the time to craft a message worth reading.

Re: Graffiti on ‘Homeland,’ Unnoticed by Producers, Calls Show Racist

#159

Post by qzxvwt »

dba7dba wrote: post #83

Homeland is a TV show, for entertainment. No one is happy with a lot of documentaries, the TV shows that are meant to get at facts and not just entertain. So while I don't want to give Homeland a free ride, it'd be too much to expect more from the show.

I believe entertainment media to be more powerful than people give credit for. But yeah, people should have the freedom to take creative liberties in this context, so we should at least be having an ongoing discourse about it as it fills more of our living experience every day.

Re: Graffiti on ‘Homeland,’ Unnoticed by Producers, Calls Show Racist

#160

Post by icebraining »

elif wrote: post #48
veeti wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the same episode, a drone strike kills tens of innocent people. If you think that is "propaganda", you obviously weren't paying any attention.

I won't attempt to address this show which I haven't seen, but in general, propaganda can function to normalize or justify the obscene. Through presenting two sides of an issue, it gives the illusion of honesty or fairness. Even if that strike was represented as a complete mistake with no justification, it has normalized drone strikes simply by exposing them as a thing you witness in sympathy from the comfort of your…

I think being wary of normalization is justified, but there should also be room for a realistic representation of the banality of evil. The people doing drone strikes are eating cake and going to their kids' soccer game and helping their neighbors after blowing up people. Pretending this isn't true would also be stereotyping.
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