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The Drone Papers

theintercept.com

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Re: The Drone Papers

#21

Post by mladenkovacevic »

whatafarce wrote: post #10

Utterly disgusting, America conducts clear war crimes, tortures, bombs afghan hospitals, assisinates, all without consequence. I'm sure some idiot will tell me to vote, because that'll change the systemic corruption and nightmare that has taken hold of US power. Did voting in nazi Germany help? No because they were voted in, voting only legitimizes a political system completely captured by insiders and corporate jugg…

Voting in the US reminds me of that old parenting tactic of an illusion of choice for kids who don't want to go to sleep: "Do you want to wear the blue pajamas or the red pajamas?"

Feeling empowered by having a say in the completely unimportant choice of pajamas, he is going to sleep whether he actually wants to or not. Ina similar manner, whoever you vote for, some foreign country is getting invaded and bombed for strategic or political reasons.

Re: The Drone Papers

#22

Post by praptak »

frandroid wrote: post #15
praptak wrote: post #12

Hm. So what stops US from targeted killings in China? Russia? Europe? Only the probable retaliation?

Yeah. "Only" when the conflict could then escalate and the opponent has nuclear weapons is kind of understating the case.

From the ethical point of view? Yup, it's still "only". You are not considered ethical if your motivation is " do what we can get away with".

Re: The Drone Papers

#23

Post by DasIch »

whatafarce wrote: post #10

Utterly disgusting, America conducts clear war crimes, tortures, bombs afghan hospitals, assisinates, all without consequence. I'm sure some idiot will tell me to vote, because that'll change the systemic corruption and nightmare that has taken hold of US power. Did voting in nazi Germany help? No because they were voted in, voting only legitimizes a political system completely captured by insiders and corporate jugg…

The argument that democracy doesn't work because Nazis is a really bad one. The only thing that argument shows is that you have a embarrassingly superficial knowledge of German history.

Re: The Drone Papers

#24

Post by rayiner »

whatafarce wrote: post #10

Utterly disgusting, America conducts clear war crimes, tortures, bombs afghan hospitals, assisinates, all without consequence. I'm sure some idiot will tell me to vote, because that'll change the systemic corruption and nightmare that has taken hold of US power. Did voting in nazi Germany help? No because they were voted in, voting only legitimizes a political system completely captured by insiders and corporate jugg…

Voting, by design, won't change something the majority of people want to keep happening: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/05/poll-support-drone-str... ("Fifty-eight percent of respondents expressed approval of U.S. drone strikes, while only 35 percent disapproved. This included nearly three-fourths of Republicans, slightly more than half of Democrats and 56 percent of independents.").

"Insiders" and "corporate juggernauts" are a red herring. The problem isn't them--it's your family and friends and coworkers. The problem is the people you walk past on the street every day, your kids' teachers, maybe even the guy at the grocery store register. The problem is us and our moral justifications for these sorts of interventions abroad.

NB: I don't support drone strikes.

Re: The Drone Papers

#26

Post by rhino369 »

gortok wrote: post #5

There are lots of important points in this set of articles, but a few stand point: - Congress has not defined what "assassination" means; and since they haven't defined it, the Executive Order 12333 is effectively meaningless. https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/the-assassination-comp... - IMEIs are used to track targets. Can IMEIs be spoofed? - Military Aged Males are considered enemy combatants. Effectively that…

>Military Aged Males are considered enemy combatants. Effectively that means all males ages 18-49 are considered enemy combatants. Since you're guilty by association, your age makes you a target.

You are conflating what the US considers enemies before targeting and after a strike. The US doesn't just bomb any random male 18-49.

But when the US does target what it thinks is a legitimate target, it counts any unknown males killed in the strike as enemy. It doesn't use that assumption to do the strike. Only to count the enemy v. civilian kill total.

And it's a pretty reasonable assumption, depending on the circumstance. If the US drone strikes a Taliban hide out, the unknown males there were very likely foot-soldiers of the Taliban. If you accidentally blow up a wedding, then counting all the men is essentially lying.

But your sex and age don't make you a target. You being near a target doesn't really make you a target either. It makes you a tragic accident.

Unless the Taliban want to line up like 18th century foot soldiers, there are going to be people killed who aren't involved. Sending in ground troops would only make it worse.

And it's not like the Taliban aren't a real threat to Afghanistan. They just took over the 5th largest city in Afghanistan two weeks ago.

Re: The Drone Papers

#28

Post by 13thLetter »

praptak wrote: post #12

Hm. So what stops US from targeted killings in China? Russia? Europe? Only the probable retaliation?

Yes. And that's also the only thing that stops China, Russia, and Europe from targeted killings in the United States.

Re: The Drone Papers

#29

Post by rdancer »

Kristine1975 wrote: post #4
yuvadam wrote: post #2

There are a few interesting anecdotes about this huge story - This is the same leak that Glenn Greenwald describes to Edward Snowden in Moscow (-> -> -> -> POTUS), meaning this story has been in the making for at least 1.5 years. Second, this quality and quantity of leaks is incredible and can only be attributed to a news organization that takes security as a paramount consideration, setting up proper secure channels…

>This is the same leak that Glenn Greenwald describes to Edward Snowden in Moscow (-> -> -> -> POTUS You mean in "Citizen Four", right?

Yes.

Re: The Drone Papers

#30

Post by TeMPOraL »

rayiner wrote: post #24
whatafarce wrote: post #10

Utterly disgusting, America conducts clear war crimes, tortures, bombs afghan hospitals, assisinates, all without consequence. I'm sure some idiot will tell me to vote, because that'll change the systemic corruption and nightmare that has taken hold of US power. Did voting in nazi Germany help? No because they were voted in, voting only legitimizes a political system completely captured by insiders and corporate jugg…

Voting, by design, won't change something the majority of people want to keep happening: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/05/poll-support-drone-str... ("Fifty-eight percent of respondents expressed approval of U.S. drone strikes, while only 35 percent disapproved. This included nearly three-fourths of Republicans, slightly more than half of Democrats and 56 percent of independents."). "Insiders" and "corporate jugg…

Most of whom don't know anything or don't have time to care. The aggregate will of majority is bullshit - the votes are not boolean, but have a third, undefined state, which happens also to be default.

This also means that if you make people care, turn the issue into a hot topic that people start tying to their identities, they'll eagerly vote your way.

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