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On the manifestos killers leave behind

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Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#81

Post by jessaustin »

danielam wrote: post #79
VT_Drew wrote: post #30

From your first paragraph: >‘I have noticed,’ it says, ‘that so many people like him are all alone and unknown, yet when they spill a little blood, the whole world knows who they are. A man who was known by no one is now known by everyone. His face splashed across every screen, his name across the lips of every person on the planet, all in the course of one day. Seems the more people you kill, the more you’re in the…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herostratus

Now that was a law that backfired... 23.5 centuries later, can the average person think of anyone else who lived in Ephesus back then?

Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#82

Post by AndrewKemendo »

I am convinced that the people who do these shootings do so because they have an ego that cannot cope with their societal impotence.

That is, they think they should be more liked, more powerful, be able to get girls, be in charge of things, free from criticism, unable to be bullied (which is reasonable) etc... but aren't for any given reason.

So their recourse is to prove to everyone how powerful they are by shooting them up. The worst part is, it is pretty powerful and it destroys communities, which is what they want. They want to be able to say they destroyed a community because that's how they are proving their power.

I don't see any solution to this. Preventing them from getting access to the tools that could empower that could help but is really hard to do, especially in the US, because banning guns or whatever likely wouldn't work 100% of the time. If they are smart and dedicated enough they will find a way to get/make bombs and guns.

So I see no real solution here.

Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#83

Post by jjoonathan »

manachar wrote: post #75
sliverstorm wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Reduce media attention to criminals" seems like an odd pre-existing personal agenda. What ulterior motive could that possibly correspond to?

Blaming media has gotten increasingly popular for a variety of societal ills. It's just a favorite boogeyman to go after. Much like people who blame violent video games or 4chan. The ulterior motive is to use the situation to disparage something they already don't like.

Yes, I'm sure people blame the media because they perceive it as popular and not because killers leave manifestos saying they do it because of the attention it will bring them.

>‘I have noticed,’ it says, ‘that so many people like him are all alone and unknown, yet when they spill a little blood, the whole world knows who they are. A man who was known by no one is now known by everyone. His face splashed across every screen, his name across the lips of every person on the planet, all in the course of one day. Seems the more people you kill, the more you’re in the limelight.’

-TFA

Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#84

Post by FussyZeus »

jessaustin wrote: post #78
FussyZeus wrote: post #13

Who cares honestly? It's the same rehashed garbage. First world problems galore. Not getting enough sex, not having enough money, not making enough friends but not being willing to do anything about those things but sit in their basement of choice and whine. Clarifying: The first world problem I'm talking about are the things the shooters cite as reasons for their actions, not the shootings themselves.

First world problems galore. Not getting enough sex... You have a different idea of 1WP than I do. I think most humans have some interest in sex, and certainly most young men in both developed and developing nations would like to have a fair amount of it. Once upon a time, nearly all women from a fairly young age were forced by custom and circumstance into subservient relations with men. We can appreciate that those…

"You have a different idea of 1WP than I do. I think most humans have some interest in sex, and certainly most young men in both developed and developing nations would like to have a fair amount of it."

But only men in the first world seem to believe they're entitled to it. As outdated and somewhat horrible your other examples were when daughters were essentially sold, at least the men doing the purchasing had attained enough personal wealth to buy the woman in question, meaning they could earn a living and provide for them after the fact. I'm also totally fine with prostitution too, no issues there.

That all being said, the male who feels entitled to sex is a distinct Western phenomenon. They point to tons of personal flaws they don't have, as in they aren't jerks and they don't treat women like shit, and talk about it as if that should be winning them the peace prize. The pretty girls have guys being nice to them a hundred times a day, who gives a shit if you do too?

Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#85

Post by rottencupcakes »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #82

I am convinced that the people who do these shootings do so because they have an ego that cannot cope with their societal impotence. That is, they think they should be more liked, more powerful, be able to get girls, be in charge of things, free from criticism, unable to be bullied (which is reasonable) etc... but aren't for any given reason. So their recourse is to prove to everyone how powerful they are by shooting…

The falacy here is the classic "perfect is the enemy of good."

Banning assault rifles and handguns could go a long way to reducing availability. And if that decreases the number of these events by as much as people think it could, it's probably worthwhile.

Just because somebody who's super dedicated to the cause and works day in and day out to get the equipment to carry out a shooting could probably make it happen doesn't mean limiting access won't greatly reduce the number.

Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#86

Post by manachar »

jjoonathan wrote: post #83
manachar wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blaming media has gotten increasingly popular for a variety of societal ills. It's just a favorite boogeyman to go after. Much like people who blame violent video games or 4chan. The ulterior motive is to use the situation to disparage something they already don't like.

Yes, I'm sure people blame the media because they perceive it as popular and not because killers leave manifestos saying they do it because of the attention it will bring them. >‘I have noticed,’ it says, ‘that so many people like him are all alone and unknown, yet when they spill a little blood, the whole world knows who they are. A man who was known by no one is now known by everyone. His face splashed across every…

It's not the media that causes the individual to crave the media attention or infamy.

Does our media contribute? Absolutely. But they are the way they are because of the way we are. Or at least the way the consumers of media are.

Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#87

Post by AndrewKemendo »

rottencupcakes wrote: post #85
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #82

I am convinced that the people who do these shootings do so because they have an ego that cannot cope with their societal impotence. That is, they think they should be more liked, more powerful, be able to get girls, be in charge of things, free from criticism, unable to be bullied (which is reasonable) etc... but aren't for any given reason. So their recourse is to prove to everyone how powerful they are by shooting…

The falacy here is the classic "perfect is the enemy of good." Banning assault rifles and handguns could go a long way to reducing availability. And if that decreases the number of these events by as much as people think it could, it's probably worthwhile. Just because somebody who's super dedicated to the cause and works day in and day out to get the equipment to carry out a shooting could probably make it happen do…

This is a good point, but I think underestimates the pathos around American gun ownership.

That is to say, I don't think that banning those things would result in a reduction in availability.

Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#88

Post by jessaustin »

FussyZeus wrote: post #84
jessaustin wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First world problems galore. Not getting enough sex... You have a different idea of 1WP than I do. I think most humans have some interest in sex, and certainly most young men in both developed and developing nations would like to have a fair amount of it. Once upon a time, nearly all women from a fairly young age were forced by custom and circumstance into subservient relations with men. We can appreciate that those…

"You have a different idea of 1WP than I do. I think most humans have some interest in sex, and certainly most young men in both developed and developing nations would like to have a fair amount of it." But only men in the first world seem to believe they're entitled to it. As outdated and somewhat horrible your other examples were when daughters were essentially sold, at least the men doing the purchasing had attain…

...the male who feels entitled to sex is a distinct Western phenomenon.

Have you ever traveled outside the West? This statement is just wrong.

Historically, some societies had to break less successful men of this sense of entitlement, for reasons of arithmetic, e.g. societies with polygyny or strict women-marry-up norms. When this breaking was done, it was most often in strict Maslow-hierarchy terms. So poor men were so poor that they were literally starving, or they got Shanghaied onto a ship, etc. You see something similar with "fundamentalist" Mormons in western USA today: daughters are locked in the house, while many sons are abused, underfed, and overworked until they run away.

Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#89

Post by dropit_sphere »

arthur_pryor wrote: post #59
tunesmith wrote: post #24

I think this is a good read when combined with the Gladwell article from the New Yorker ( http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/thresholds-of-v... ). I'm not against gun control efforts or better mental health efforts (whatever that might mean) but I think that both articles suggest that a lot of progress can be made in figuring out how to arrest this kind of societal disconnect. In the days after Columbine, t…

I haven't thought about "Voices From The Hellmouth" in a really long time. I remember reading Slashdot a ton in high school and college (maybe 97 or 98 through 02?). Then, not so much. FWIW, HN, esp when I first found it a few years ago, reminded me a lot of what I loved about the discussion on Slashdot back in the day. Anyway, the actual point of this comment: much of what's described in "Voices From The Hellmouth"…

>Ironic, but not unexpected: people without power often end up at odds with one another when they should be looking for common ground and empathizing with one another

From a certain altitude this is true, but what usually happens is the top plays the bottom off against the middle. From the perspective of the middle, both are enemies.

Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#90

Post by junofan »

at-fates-hands wrote: post #47
mathgenius wrote: post #10

I was picked on in school a fair amount. Some of it quite violent, and pervasive. At some point I got really fed up with one particular kid, and got myself a big stick. Luckily for him that stick broke cleanly in two upon first impact, otherwise i'm not sure what would have happened. After that things subsided somewhat. That kid threatened me more, but never did come after me again. Growing older I realise two things…

You can't, but you can make a point to tell your children, which is what I've done. You have to stop the cycle early, or it does become pervasive and nobody wins in the end, nobody. Exhibit A is the Columbine massacre. The kids were bullied until they finally snapped and a lot of people lost their lives because everybody around them failed at stopping it. When my son told me he was being bullied, I showed him a few B…

Wow, this comment is really shocking to me. Wow, wow, wow. I hope your child turns out okay :/
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