On the manifestos killers leave behind • Hacker News Board

Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#61

Post by AdeptusAquinas » Wed, Oct 14, 2015, 9:14 PM UTC

cmiles74 wrote: post #48

This is the first time I've read excerpts from these "manifestos" and it's hard to know how to react. It all reads like a kind of mental illness and it's chilling to see the similarities (although this article may only make them look similar). Intellectually I feel like there should be room for sympathy of some kind, but to be honest, I feel nothing of the kind; just angry. The authors strike me as small, pathetic, m…

I think you have hit on the one key similarity, at least in the examples cited. They all seem to feel they 'deserve' something, that the world owes them a relationship, sex, power, money etc.

When they don't get it they get frustrated and angry, and eventually violent because they feel they are being 'cheated', 'oppressed'. I've read that that Elliot guy also harboured a racist belief that he was better than african-americans, and thought it a huge injustice that he couldn't get a girlfriend but saw african-americans who could.

Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#62

Post by hga » Wed, Oct 14, 2015, 9:21 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #60

hga wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not even close; here's an accounting I did covering just Western Europe just for this century as of a little over 2 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4970408 and the same with some discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5070201 Add e.g. Canada and "[it's] overwhelmingly a US problem" is even less true.

That's 20, for all of Europe, since 2000. The US has had over 30 mass killings this year . And that's only the events where four or more people were killed. It doesn't include events like Sept 28th 2015 Miami Florida where 15 people were shot but no-one died. Sept 28th 2015 Miami Florida - I need to include all that information because there were also shootings on that day in Indianapolis, IN; Walterboro, SC; and Phi…

Those are different classes of "mass killings", Wikipedians aren't going to collect all the cases of where 4 or more people were killed, and my postings were not intended to discuss scale, just to refute the lie that this is a uniquely American phenomenon with 2000-~2012 examples.

Which is not quite what you claimed, you said "overwhelmingly", and that's sufficiently vague I suspect it's a debatable point. Paywall stops me from the WSJ article, but I know that people who study this sort of thing that I trust have said at minimum the FBI's recent study was bunk, and that's enough for me on this topic.

Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#63

Post by everial » Wed, Oct 14, 2015, 9:33 PM UTC

sparkzilla wrote: post #23

I went to school with the author. If you like his writing style, I highly recommend his (long but fascinating) account of trying to ghost write Julian Assange's autobiography. http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n05/andrew-ohagan/ghosting

Thanks for mentioning - really enjoyed the linked piece (previously on HN at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9395156 though it didn't generate discussion).

Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#64

Post by justinator » Wed, Oct 14, 2015, 9:33 PM UTC

roflc0ptic wrote: post #26

cuberator wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He doesnt have much in common with the people mentioned in this article, except Breivik maybe, though i might be completely wrong since i havent read up on the Unabomber.

Yeah, as I understand it the Unabomber was politically motivated terrorism. He also had the distinction of being a pretty smart guy, which is unusual for the demographic that gets into mass murder.

Ted Bundy [0] Andrew Cunanan [1] Jeffrey Dahmer -

I wouldn't say it's "unusual" [2]

[0] http://maamodt.asp.radford.edu/Psyc%20405/serial%20killers/B...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Cunanan#Early_life

[2] http://www.examiner.com/article/22-serial-killers-with-high-...

Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#65

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Oct 14, 2015, 9:42 PM UTC

roflc0ptic wrote: post #26

cuberator wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He doesnt have much in common with the people mentioned in this article, except Breivik maybe, though i might be completely wrong since i havent read up on the Unabomber.

Yeah, as I understand it the Unabomber was politically motivated terrorism. He also had the distinction of being a pretty smart guy, which is unusual for the demographic that gets into mass murder.

> He also had the distinction of being a pretty smart guy, which is unusual for the demographic that gets into mass murder.

I actually thought it was fairly common for mass killers (other than those whose mass killing is confined to a single mass casualty attack / killing spree), if for no other reason than not being smart makes it more likely that you get caught before your killing reaches the level of "mass".

Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#66

Post by sliverstorm » Wed, Oct 14, 2015, 9:46 PM UTC

manachar wrote: post #39

cuberator wrote: post #11

Very well written and interesting. While some people put the blame on firearms (lets not turn this into a debate on gun control) i believe that its the media attention that is the biggest culprit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTGWv4

"Let's not turn this into a debate on BLANK, instead let's talk about my pet theory BLANK". Seems like that's the only constant after any sort of horrific tragedy. It becomes grist in the mill for people to push their pre-existing agendas. For some it has been a push for greater gun control. For others it has been a push for greater funding and understanding of mental health. For others, you blame media attention. Pe…

"Reduce media attention to criminals" seems like an odd pre-existing personal agenda. What ulterior motive could that possibly correspond to?

Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#67

Post by anigbrowl » Wed, Oct 14, 2015, 9:55 PM UTC

cuberator wrote: post #11

Very well written and interesting. While some people put the blame on firearms (lets not turn this into a debate on gun control) i believe that its the media attention that is the biggest culprit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTGWv4

Media attention may well be the biggest motivator for such actions, but once someone gives in to their murderous impulses guns make it very easy to kill a lot of people, simply by being highly optimized. You can quickly kill more people with a bomb, but they're relatively hard to manufacture and deploy; you can very easily kill someone with a knife or any number of other close-quarters weapons, but it's not reliable or efficient to do so. Thus, while soldiers deployed in combat usually have a knife and may well have hand grenades or other explosives, firearms are the primary weapons by a mile.

I'm not in favor of gun confiscation (and don't plan on getting into any arguments on gun policy today) but it would be absurd to ignore the technological-economic impact of guns on the production of murder. Suggesting that media eschew reporting the news, even to the point of sensationalizing it, is irrational given both what we know about human behavior and the constitutional safeguards against censorship in the US. To be honest, I think people who blame the media are simply demonstrating their own strong preference for social proof and then projecting that motivation onto murderous individuals. It is very likely a significant factor but I don't think we have anywhere near enough data to conclude that it is a primary motivator.

Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#68

Post by agarden » Wed, Oct 14, 2015, 9:57 PM UTC

AdeptusAquinas wrote: post #61

cmiles74 wrote: post #48

This is the first time I've read excerpts from these "manifestos" and it's hard to know how to react. It all reads like a kind of mental illness and it's chilling to see the similarities (although this article may only make them look similar). Intellectually I feel like there should be room for sympathy of some kind, but to be honest, I feel nothing of the kind; just angry. The authors strike me as small, pathetic, m…

I think you have hit on the one key similarity, at least in the examples cited. They all seem to feel they 'deserve' something, that the world owes them a relationship, sex, power, money etc. When they don't get it they get frustrated and angry, and eventually violent because they feel they are being 'cheated', 'oppressed'. I've read that that Elliot guy also harboured a racist belief that he was better than african-…

Elliot Rodger's manifesto: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/05/25/us/shooting-do...

Rodger thought it was a huge injustice that anyone else could have a girlfriend -- or anything else -- when he couldn't. Though he never seems to have actually summoned the courage to ask a girl out.

Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#69

Post by DanBC » Wed, Oct 14, 2015, 10:05 PM UTC

hga wrote: post #62

DanBC wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's 20, for all of Europe, since 2000. The US has had over 30 mass killings this year . And that's only the events where four or more people were killed. It doesn't include events like Sept 28th 2015 Miami Florida where 15 people were shot but no-one died. Sept 28th 2015 Miami Florida - I need to include all that information because there were also shootings on that day in Indianapolis, IN; Walterboro, SC; and Phi…

Those are different classes of "mass killings", Wikipedians aren't going to collect all the cases of where 4 or more people were killed, and my postings were not intended to discuss scale, just to refute the lie that this is a uniquely American phenomenon with 2000-~2012 examples. Which is not quite what you claimed, you said "overwhelmingly", and that's sufficiently vague I suspect it's a debatable point. Paywall st…

You tell me what you're counting as a mass killing, and then I can show you how that event is overwhelmingly something that happens in the US. You've pointed to less than two events per year for Europe for this century.

How about six people killed? There have been 13 events in the US where six people were shot and killed since Jan 1 2013.

You're wrong anyway. From your own post:

> De Gelder, Kim, 20, Jan. 16/23,, 2009, Belgium, 4, 12

> Bosse, Bastian, 18, Nov. 20, 2006, Germany, 0, 22

> Radmacher, Sabine, 41, Sep. 19, 2010, Germany, 3, 18 (arson was also used)

> Sacco, Angelo Secondo, 54, June 28, 2005, Italy, 3, 9

Numbers killed: 4, zero, 3, and 3.

Wikipedians are going to list every event that happens in Europe, because these events are so rare. They are by definition news worthy, which provides a lot of reliable sources. But US mass shootings are so common that they hardly make the news.

The fact that you dismiss an event where 15 people were shot but not killed as not being relevant, or you dismiss events where 4 people or more are killed as not being mass killings is a sign that this conversation is pointless: you're blind to the facts.

> this is a uniquely American

I didn't say uniquely, I said overwhelmingly.

It is overwhelmingly a US problem.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/oct/0...

Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#70

Post by agarden » Wed, Oct 14, 2015, 10:05 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #32

FussyZeus wrote: post #13

Who cares honestly? It's the same rehashed garbage. First world problems galore. Not getting enough sex, not having enough money, not making enough friends but not being willing to do anything about those things but sit in their basement of choice and whine. Clarifying: The first world problem I'm talking about are the things the shooters cite as reasons for their actions, not the shootings themselves.

Mass shootings are overwhelmingly a US problem, not rest of the first world problem. (There are a few exceptions). > but not being willing to do anything about those things but sit in their basement of choice and whine. Or go out and kill a bunch of people.

If you want to talk about people being shot, instead of just cases where civilians walk into a crowded place just to kill as many people as possible, then I think you need to take Syria, Iraq, Somalia, Palestine, and more into account. And I doubt, once you do that, that the US will still have the most mass shootings or carnage.