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On the manifestos killers leave behind

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Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#51

Post by FussyZeus »

roflc0ptic wrote: post #29
FussyZeus wrote: post #13

Who cares honestly? It's the same rehashed garbage. First world problems galore. Not getting enough sex, not having enough money, not making enough friends but not being willing to do anything about those things but sit in their basement of choice and whine. Clarifying: The first world problem I'm talking about are the things the shooters cite as reasons for their actions, not the shootings themselves.

Sure, it's a first world problem. I guess you can either emphasize "first world", or "problem." As a resident or denizen of the first world, I'm interested in first world problems.

Wasn't referring to the mass shootings being a first world problem, referring to the varying "crises" presented as justifications FOR mass murder, which are almost without exception pathetic.

Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#52

Post by FussyZeus »

VT_Drew wrote: post #30

From your first paragraph: >‘I have noticed,’ it says, ‘that so many people like him are all alone and unknown, yet when they spill a little blood, the whole world knows who they are. A man who was known by no one is now known by everyone. His face splashed across every screen, his name across the lips of every person on the planet, all in the course of one day. Seems the more people you kill, the more you’re in the…

No kidding. Leave them as forgotten as they thought they were in life.

Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#53

Post by avar »

manachar wrote: post #39
cuberator wrote: post #11

Very well written and interesting. While some people put the blame on firearms (lets not turn this into a debate on gun control) i believe that its the media attention that is the biggest culprit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTGWv4

"Let's not turn this into a debate on BLANK, instead let's talk about my pet theory BLANK". Seems like that's the only constant after any sort of horrific tragedy. It becomes grist in the mill for people to push their pre-existing agendas. For some it has been a push for greater gun control. For others it has been a push for greater funding and understanding of mental health. For others, you blame media attention. Pe…

As the linked article covers this is not exclusive to America, that's probably one correlation we can genuinely throw out.

Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#54

Post by vorg »

> According to the FBI, there have been close to two hundred such incidents in the last 15 years, resulting in the murder of 486 people and the wounding of 557 as of September last year

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualt... , in the 8-year Iraq War (2003–2011), there were 3,527 U.S. combat deaths and 32,222 wounded. Could save far more American lives, not to mention others, by keeping sociopaths out of the Presidency rather than profiling and surveilling loners.

Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#55

Post by comrh »

VT_Drew wrote: post #30

From your first paragraph: >‘I have noticed,’ it says, ‘that so many people like him are all alone and unknown, yet when they spill a little blood, the whole world knows who they are. A man who was known by no one is now known by everyone. His face splashed across every screen, his name across the lips of every person on the planet, all in the course of one day. Seems the more people you kill, the more you’re in the…

I have no idea why this is controversial. The previous day's Gladwell article even comes to the same conclusion as most that notoriety and coverage are major factor in these types of attacks.

Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#56

Post by theseatoms »

Retra wrote: post #46
mathgenius wrote: post #10

I was picked on in school a fair amount. Some of it quite violent, and pervasive. At some point I got really fed up with one particular kid, and got myself a big stick. Luckily for him that stick broke cleanly in two upon first impact, otherwise i'm not sure what would have happened. After that things subsided somewhat. That kid threatened me more, but never did come after me again. Growing older I realise two things…

"First, those "jocks" that get all the girls, have (generalizing here) other very serious problems, are often emotionally stunted, angry at their dads, or whatever. " I highly doubt that this is true.

Yeah, smells like an adolescent rationalization.

Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#57

Post by tunesmith »

cmiles74 wrote: post #48

This is the first time I've read excerpts from these "manifestos" and it's hard to know how to react. It all reads like a kind of mental illness and it's chilling to see the similarities (although this article may only make them look similar). Intellectually I feel like there should be room for sympathy of some kind, but to be honest, I feel nothing of the kind; just angry. The authors strike me as small, pathetic, m…

The tough part is knowing that for every one of those that shoots up a bunch of people, there's an untold number of people that might feel similar feelings of alienation and agitation, but don't end up taking those final planning and action steps. In other words, before the killers took those final steps towards becoming a monster, there's not a really good way to differentiate them from someone else who never becomes a monster.

This is where I think the whole discussion goes off the rails - the emphasis is in figuring out how to identify these "potential monsters", or in preventing these "potential monsters" from having the means to accomplish their ends.

But if it's impossible to define a test/indicator such that, if it's true then they'll probably shoot up a school down the line, and if it's false then they probably won't, then where does that leave us?

I think it leaves us in a place of not treating these people as potential monsters, but instead as normal kids struggling with feelings of alienation and lack of purpose, and giving them love and support. Not looking for signs of "potential school shooters" and seeking to prevent it, but looking for signs of loneliness and alienation, and seeking to give support. I just think that for a lot of us, we've probably had times in our past where we had a lot in common with the people that had not yet shot up a bunch of people. So when we think of what might have made our lives better at those times, maybe it would have helped some of them too. There the emphasis is more on just helping alienated kids feel less alone, knowing that for a very small percentage of them, it very well could prevent some real tragedies later on.

Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#58

Post by mfoy_ »

tunesmith wrote: post #24

I think this is a good read when combined with the Gladwell article from the New Yorker ( http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/thresholds-of-v... ). I'm not against gun control efforts or better mental health efforts (whatever that might mean) but I think that both articles suggest that a lot of progress can be made in figuring out how to arrest this kind of societal disconnect. In the days after Columbine, t…

That Gladwell article is a good read, it offers a perspective I hadn't come across before. Not that it really "solves" the problem at all, just casts a different light on it.

Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#59

Post by arthur_pryor »

tunesmith wrote: post #24

I think this is a good read when combined with the Gladwell article from the New Yorker ( http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/thresholds-of-v... ). I'm not against gun control efforts or better mental health efforts (whatever that might mean) but I think that both articles suggest that a lot of progress can be made in figuring out how to arrest this kind of societal disconnect. In the days after Columbine, t…

I haven't thought about "Voices From The Hellmouth" in a really long time. I remember reading Slashdot a ton in high school and college (maybe 97 or 98 through 02?). Then, not so much. FWIW, HN, esp when I first found it a few years ago, reminded me a lot of what I loved about the discussion on Slashdot back in the day.

Anyway, the actual point of this comment: much of what's described in "Voices From The Hellmouth" would now fit comfortably under the currently fashionable term "microagression." I'd bet that many posters on HN and elsewhere who think that microaggressions aren't a thing worth real concern, are also the sorts of people who were/are picked on in the way that "Hellmouth" catalogs so vividly.

And for the record, I'm not saying that the prevailing view on HN is that microaggressions aren't real, or that most people who deny them were bullied geeks. Just that there are probably a lot of bullied or formerly bullied geeks who deny the significance of such social ostracism, even though they experienced it themselves.

Ironic, but not unexpected: people without power often end up at odds with one another when they should be looking for common ground and empathizing with one another. Still, sad. I always find it really painful to watch minorities be racist, to watch geeks pick on other geeks for lacking social graces, to watch women be unfeminist, etc. Well, sometimes it's darkly hilarious. But still painful.

Re: On the manifestos killers leave behind

#60

Post by DanBC »

hga wrote: post #37
DanBC wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mass shootings are overwhelmingly a US problem, not rest of the first world problem. (There are a few exceptions). > but not being willing to do anything about those things but sit in their basement of choice and whine. Or go out and kill a bunch of people.

Not even close; here's an accounting I did covering just Western Europe just for this century as of a little over 2 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4970408 and the same with some discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5070201 Add e.g. Canada and "[it's] overwhelmingly a US problem" is even less true.

That's 20, for all of Europe, since 2000.

The US has had over 30 mass killings this year. And that's only the events where four or more people were killed. It doesn't include events like Sept 28th 2015 Miami Florida where 15 people were shot but no-one died.

Sept 28th 2015 Miami Florida - I need to include all that information because there were also shootings on that day in Indianapolis, IN; Walterboro, SC; and Philadelphia, PA, and there were shootings (often different events on the same day) on September 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 11th, 14th, 15th, 18th, 19th 20th, 21st, 29th, and 30th September.

> Not even close

Really?

http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-leads-world-in-mass-shooting...

> The U.S. represents less than 5% of the 7.3 billion global population but accounted for 31% of global mass shooters during the period from 1966 to 2012, more than any other country, Mr. Lankford said, adding that he defines a mass shooter as one who killed at least four victims. The 90 killers who carried out mass shootings in the U.S. amounted to five times as many as the next highest country, the Philippines, according to his research.

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