Facebook paid £4,327 corporation tax in the UK in 2014 • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook paid £4,327 corporation tax in the UK in 2014

#341

Post by rstupek » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 3:58 PM UTC

anjc wrote: post #231

aianus wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1 person making 100x more than an average person is going to pay less net taxes and will buy fewer things (even if it's more expensive stuff) than 100 people. This just isn't true at all. The top 1% of earners in the US pay more tax than the bottom 90% combined. Sometimes rich people pay a smaller percentage of their income than less-rich people but in absolute terms poor people and middle class constitute a minori…

...he was talking about net income and personal expenditure. You're talking about income tax. They're different things. 1 person will buy less than 100 people. Incidentally, the top 1% pay more tax, in absolute terms, because they earn more than everybody else. What's your point? That's how percentages and progressive taxation works.

Its not necessarily true that 1 person will SPEND less than 100 people.

Re: Facebook paid £4,327 corporation tax in the UK in 2014

#342

Post by bduerst » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 4:04 PM UTC

phlo wrote: post #339

bduerst wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the majority of companies that don't pay dividends? I agree that tax codes are complex and the international theater makes them hard to enforce, but most of the proposed replacements for corporate income tax are typically half-baked.

Either (as the parent comment proposes) force them to pay dividends. Or don't: in order to profit from the higher share price, investors either have to sell some of their shares (realizing their capital gains) or use them as collateral for a loan (which should be treated as a capital gains realization event).

There are entire industries with thin margins (e.g. grocery, airline, blue collar services) that would be destroyed if you forced them to pay the same dividends as others.

Why are you fixating on share price? Now how are you going to tax LLC, LLP, etc.? Privately traded corps that don't have a market price?

Re: Facebook paid £4,327 corporation tax in the UK in 2014

#343

Post by denysonique » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 4:06 PM UTC

Less taxes == more money in our pockets. Facebook higher taxed == FB Ads more expensive == Higher product prices for the consumers

Taxes are always as result paid by the consumers/employees, never by "businesses".

Money saved by Facebook corresponds to money saved in our pockets.

Re: Facebook paid £4,327 corporation tax in the UK in 2014

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Post by mike_hearn » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 4:11 PM UTC

kuschku wrote: post #325

phlo wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I might not have made that point clear: they wouldn't be taxed at all. Not at the corporate level, that is. As far as I can tell, money will exit corporations in three ways: 1) salary, 2) shares and 3) payments for goods/services, mostly to other corporations. Income and capital gains taxes will take care of 1 and 2. The company won't owe taxes, but whichever natural person receives the money will. As for 3, m…

And how do I tax a shareholder living in US if I’m the UK government? I have no ability to do so.

You don't. But then again why would you - that shareholder gets no services from the UK government so there's no moral case for them to pay tax to a foreign country.

Re: Facebook paid £4,327 corporation tax in the UK in 2014

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Post by mike_hearn » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 4:12 PM UTC

jos3000 wrote: post #287

phlo wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stories like this make me question if corporate tax even makes sense. However well designed, a tax code with today's complexities is going to have holes. If a savings of even one per mill may mean millions, corporations are going to spend insane amounts of money to hire the best experts to use every last loophole. Why don't we cut down everything to a couple of manageable groups that can be tightened down? I think th…

The big problem with this is that, under a simple tax system, if a government wants to increase it's tax revenue it is extremely easy for voters to understand what is happening. Governments prefer to make complicated tax laws because they are easier to spin.

Governments make complicated tax laws because of constant attempts to make the tax system 'fair', where fairness is a pretty vague concept and can be interpreted many ways by different people and parties.

There are lots of economic arguments for very simple tax systems that prioritise revenue collection over other things. But a lot of people would see them as "unfair" and therefore unjust.

Re: Facebook paid £4,327 corporation tax in the UK in 2014

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Post by sigzero » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 4:15 PM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #328

fredoliveira wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See but they do pay their taxes. They just use loopholes to pay less taxes.

Let me ask you then, do you think it's right that the tax burden is on those locally-run frozen yogurt places, over the extremely well-off multinationals like Apple? Is that the way you want to see the world run?

I don't think he is saying that at all. Of course Apple is going to use every loophole they find. They are a business and that business is making money. The only way to fix it is to remove the loopholes.

Re: Facebook paid £4,327 corporation tax in the UK in 2014

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Post by ken47 » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 4:16 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #158

speleding wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The corporate tax rate in the US is actually higher than in many EU countries. The reverse is actually true, US companies choosing to base their "head quarters" in Ireland and the Netherlands.

It's worse than that. The "HQ" is in Ireland, but pays "royalties" to an IP holding company in the Cayman Islands, which is where all the profits go, on which no tax is paid. This is the "double Irish" referred to in other comments. Edit: note that you can just go and read the accounts for Facebook UK here: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/06331310/filing-h... A very important piece of information is left o…

That may be true, but something something shareholder value trumps all.

Re: Facebook paid £4,327 corporation tax in the UK in 2014

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Post by joesb » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 4:16 PM UTC

mattmanser wrote: post #117

raverbashing wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, how much Apple money stays outside of the US because it was paid there? Also, how much VAT and other taxes are charged in an iPhone sold in Europe Same for Facebook, their ads generate VAT. Their employees there pay income tax.

If I didn't buy an iPhone, I'd buy a different phone. The VAT would still be there. If I didn't use Facebook I'd be using a different image sharing service, or chat service, or whatever. The VAT would still be there. Because I have a budget to spend on entertainment, and various companies compete for that budget. We pay those taxes, Facebook/Apple doesn't 'generate' anything, that money would be spent on a different…

That even makes more valid point that since VAT in Europe is European customer's contribution, it should stay in Europe.

Re: Facebook paid £4,327 corporation tax in the UK in 2014

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Post by alextgordon » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 4:16 PM UTC

rstupek wrote: post #331

kuschku wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, in your system, how would a corporations profits be taxed? You have shown nothing like that, really. And a direct property tax is also not a good idea, as then you tax people for having property, not for using their property.

You shouldn't tax corporations as it is simply an indirect tax on individuals. A good way to hide a persons total tax rate by making part of it be included in the goods they purchase.

But this is not true, is it? Corporation tax is on profits. Companies price things at the price that maximises revenue. Since corporation tax does not affect revenue, it is not a variable in their pricing calculation.

A low corporation tax is valuable because it attracts foreign businesses, but that is necessarily zero-sum.

Re: Facebook paid £4,327 corporation tax in the UK in 2014

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Post by refurb » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 4:20 PM UTC

Marazan wrote: post #304

refurb wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moral to who? Are you suggesting we legislate morality? I'd prefer not to go down that path (again).

We legislate morality all the time. Would you at least agree with the statement that "Not all legal actions are moral and not all moral actions are legal"?

I prefer to avoid morality since it's too subjective.

Morally I believe a business should only pay it's required taxes. Obviously you disagree.