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Global coalition tells Facebook to kill its Real Names policy

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Re: Global coalition tells Facebook to kill its Real Names policy

#31

Post by mikeash »

pmlnr wrote: post #21
avolcano wrote: post #6

Good, I'm glad this is getting traction. Seems like every week I read about another trans person or someone who uses a psuedonym in day-to-day life getting "reported" by some asshole and getting locked out of their Facebook, and Facebook seems uninterested in fixing the issue. Honestly, it's heartbreaking, as someone who uses many Facebook open source projects, to talk to engineers at Facebook and find out how many d…

I don't get this. This is a company, a product, which no one is forced to use.* If you disagree, walk away and don't touch Facebook; there are trillions of other options out there to build community sites, some much, much better than FB. That is how you make a change, not by enforcing ideas on a company. *ED. For some situations I understand that it's inevitable - even schools use it as a generic broadcasting media n…

I don't get why you think the only options should be to agree entirely or walk away. If a company has a product which you mostly enjoy but which you think could be improved, is it not reasonable to complain to try to get them to improve it?

Re: Global coalition tells Facebook to kill its Real Names policy

#32

Post by Symbiote »

mrweasel wrote: post #22
PostOnce wrote: post #3

Facebook was made large by the fact that you can find people you used to know, or haven't spoken to in a while, or aren't that close to. You can find anyone, it's easy. Removing the real names policy does away with that, and I would say seriously threaten's facebook's business/growth/future. If you don't know your old girlfriend or your cousin or your highschool bandmate's username, how are you going to get in touch…

I was thinking something along those lines. I think the strenght of Facebooks is that people use their real name. I wasn't even thinking about searchability, but that's potentially going right out the window. 3rd. parties that are using Facebook for logins are frequently using/allowing Facebook precisely because you're relative sure that it's "a real person". I know that's one reason why we're using it. I might be wr…

Facebook profiles use names that look reasonable, but they aren't necessarily real names.

I have at least three friends who don't use their official names in normal life, and have Facebook profiles under slightly modified versions of their names [1] to make them look "normal". (Contriving an example, change "Tall David" to "Taal David" and everyone that knows Tall David can work it out.)

[1] name = what they call themselves, as far as I'm concerned

Re: Global coalition tells Facebook to kill its Real Names policy

#33

Post by steckerbrett »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #17
mahouse wrote: post #10

That's stupid. If you use a credible pseudonym, they will never ask you for your ID. If they ask you for your ID, send a fake one. It has worked for me three times. They were laughably bad and they accepted them.

> If you use a credible pseudonym, they will never ask you for your ID. Unless you're trans. Unless that 'pseudonym' is actually your real name because you come from a non-majority ethnic background.

I know someone with the surname "body" who has never been able to make an account because it sounds like "No Body".

Re: Global coalition tells Facebook to kill its Real Names policy

#34

Post by Symbiote »

DanBC wrote: post #30
aianus wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not discriminating against GLBT+ people, they're discriminating against people using pseudonyms. I can't show up to a job interview, use a fake name, and claim I'm being discriminated against...

You know what indirect discrimination is, right? > I can't show up to a job interview, use a fake name, and claim I'm being discriminated against... You could if you're in the process of transitioning. (UK; the US needs to catch up). And it's not a fake name. It's their name. You seem to think that people have this single thing which is their name - that might be true in the US (I dunno) but it's not true in many oth…

You could probably go further — at most only HR need to know an official name, probably with a note on the file reminding them that it's confidential. That need only be revealed once you're accepting the job offer.

I have recently moved to Denmark, and several public or semi-public database systems have had special attention drawn to how my name might be used, and instructions to avoid certain uses. (For example, there seemed to be a special way to register in a municipality under an assumed name, to avoid stalkers etc.)

Re: Global coalition tells Facebook to kill its Real Names policy

#35

Post by hugh4 »

detaro wrote: post #23
PostOnce wrote: post #3

Facebook was made large by the fact that you can find people you used to know, or haven't spoken to in a while, or aren't that close to. You can find anyone, it's easy. Removing the real names policy does away with that, and I would say seriously threaten's facebook's business/growth/future. If you don't know your old girlfriend or your cousin or your highschool bandmate's username, how are you going to get in touch…

> People, I understand the arguments against real names. Facebook's counterargument is money. Care to explain how forcing people to use their legal name instead of the name other people know them by equals less money?

You're asking the wrong question. You should ask the question of how forcing people to use their legal name instead of any old random arbitrary name they might make up equals less money.

And I think that's reasonably obvious. Facebook got to be as big as it is by forcing people to use their real names, so that all their acquaintances could find them easily.

Re: Global coalition tells Facebook to kill its Real Names policy

#36

Post by glormph »

DanBC wrote: post #28
glormph wrote: post #26

Someone mentioned that FB may want to be the world's identity broker. I personally hate the idea, but if that's the case, they'll hardly give up their policy. Governmental ID brokers have exceptions to protect someone's identity. If FB wants to be taken seriously they should implement similar possibilities. The next one will then be please send us a police report stating you are in need of etc etc.

But Facebook's policy ignore the law in many countries. In England I can use any name I choose so long as I don't have the intent to deceive. I am legally allowed to be Ann and Bob simultaneously. (admittedly that's a bit trickier when organisations "copper-bottom" regulations around identity, eg money laundering "Know your customer" regs.)

I am not well versed in law at all but that sounds pretty fair. I guess FB doesnt behave as an org you can apply with whatever name you want, but more as a gov which wants to keep track of its citizens. They can also do so because their members have few alternatives, just like citizens of countries.

Re: Global coalition tells Facebook to kill its Real Names policy

#37

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

pmlnr wrote: post #21
avolcano wrote: post #6

Good, I'm glad this is getting traction. Seems like every week I read about another trans person or someone who uses a psuedonym in day-to-day life getting "reported" by some asshole and getting locked out of their Facebook, and Facebook seems uninterested in fixing the issue. Honestly, it's heartbreaking, as someone who uses many Facebook open source projects, to talk to engineers at Facebook and find out how many d…

I don't get this. This is a company, a product, which no one is forced to use.* If you disagree, walk away and don't touch Facebook; there are trillions of other options out there to build community sites, some much, much better than FB. That is how you make a change, not by enforcing ideas on a company. *ED. For some situations I understand that it's inevitable - even schools use it as a generic broadcasting media n…

> This is a company, a product, which no one is forced to use.

In practice, not using Facebook means cutting off social contact with some people.

Re: Global coalition tells Facebook to kill its Real Names policy

#38

Post by zo1 »

Symbiote wrote: post #32
mrweasel wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking something along those lines. I think the strenght of Facebooks is that people use their real name. I wasn't even thinking about searchability, but that's potentially going right out the window. 3rd. parties that are using Facebook for logins are frequently using/allowing Facebook precisely because you're relative sure that it's "a real person". I know that's one reason why we're using it. I might be wr…

Facebook profiles use names that look reasonable, but they aren't necessarily real names. I have at least three friends who don't use their official names in normal life, and have Facebook profiles under slightly modified versions of their names [1] to make them look "normal". (Contriving an example, change "Tall David" to "Taal David" and everyone that knows Tall David can work it out.) [1] name = what they call the…

This is a very good point. Perhaps their drive for a "real names" policy is not for the actual real name, but rather to not have an obviously fake name. E.g. in your scenario an obviously fake name would be "Taal TheSexMan David". That's the sort of stuff that killed-off MySpace, if you ask me.

Re: Global coalition tells Facebook to kill its Real Names policy

#39

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

aianus wrote: post #29
DanBC wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying it's fine that Facebook chooses to discriminate against GLBT+ people? What happens if we sub in other minorities? "If black people disagree, walk away and don't touch Facebook"; "If Jews disagree, walk away and don't touch Facebook".

They're not discriminating against GLBT+ people, they're discriminating against people using pseudonyms. I can't show up to a job interview, use a fake name, and claim I'm being discriminated against...

> They're not discriminating against GLBT+ people, they're discriminating against people using pseudonyms.

Which disproportionately affects trans people.

Re: Global coalition tells Facebook to kill its Real Names policy

#40

Post by Jare »

zo1 wrote: post #12
MaysonL wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A relative of a friend of mine uses a pseudonym to escape harassment they suffered due to being gay. They're Facebook friend of their parents, their sibs, and other relatives.

How does that work exactly? They were already harassed, so the harassers already knew their real name, I take it? How would abolishing the real-names policy help them in this scenario? Genuinely confused. Edit. Word missing.

> the harassers already knew their real name, I take it? How would abolishing the real-names policy help

Without the policy they don't have to use their real name, which means harassers can't find them (as easily) on Facebook. The ability to use a real name that is not your actual name is just a clunky workaround for the policy, not a proof that the policy works.

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