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Computer science is now the top major for women at Stanford University

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Re: Computer science is now the top major for women at Stanford University

#81

Post by zobzu »

douche wrote: post #61
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nerd elitism in programming needs to stop. The first hackers didn't have computers when they were kids, let me remind you.

They were tinkerers, though. You've got the MIT model railroad kids, all the people that fooled around with scrap electronics, the radioheads, some gearheads. I have no references to back this up, but I think it would make an interesting longitudinal study, or if you were somewhat cruel, a twin study: are children that spend most of their play time building with Legos or Kinex or erector sets significantly more likel…

These things don't pay though. People care about diversity only where it pays.

If comp sci. was still seen as a thing for nerds with skin issues that don't get a lot of money you can bet there would be no "diversity" thing going on.

There should be no such thing. Instead of trying to bend ethics I'd rather make sure any one, from any skin color, gender, place of birth, etc. can do anything they want. THAT would be diversity.

The truth is that today what you can do with your life depends a LOT more on your place of birth than your skin color or gender.

Re: Computer science is now the top major for women at Stanford University

#82

Post by kelukelugames »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #65
kelukelugames wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the abstract from your link. A bit more complicated than your summary. Ethnic diversity is increasing in most advanced countries, driven mostly by sharp increases in immigration. In the long run immigration and diversity are likely to have important cultural, economic, fiscal, and developmental benefits. In the short run, however, immigration and ethnic diversity tend to reduce social solidarity and social cap…

If you read the paper itself, it's basically empirical work describing the negative effects, followed by an essay claiming the positive ones. As I said - he spent 6 years looking for something to counter his empirical results, and published when he came up with it. Note also that I'm not strongly endorsing this work - I'm just pointing out the strong desire to not publish a result against diversity.

Thanks for explaining. I guess people are still wary since The Bell Curve.

Re: Computer science is now the top major for women at Stanford University

#83

Post by zobzu »

droidist2 wrote: post #63
eru wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm too young but I have the feeling working conditions were much better back then. You mean working conditions for programmers? From talking to people who worked in computing back then (like my grandfather), it seems like we have it better today. Of course that's only anecdotal, and my perception of today is as coloured as my choice of people to talk to. Would be interesting to see a more formal study.

Old people always say they had it worse though. "In my day we had to walk 15 miles in the snow to compile our code." Yeah but rent costed 2 days pay back then, not 2 weeks.

Oddly accurate, I guess bay area rent is indeed pay in about 2 weeks with current salaries.

Source: my rent is about 2 weeks of pay (which sucks and doesn't feel very sustainable, mind you)

Re: Computer science is now the top major for women at Stanford University

#84

Post by abalashov »

wisty wrote: post #25
ngoel36 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Very little of a CS degree is "coding" - CS is so much more than that. It's even beyond "engineering". A proper CS degree teaches you how to think , how to solve insanely hard problems, and how to do so with a team of other smart people - often with different personalities. What separates CS from other degrees is that it does filter out those without the horsepower or fortitude on both the quant side (algorithms)…

> A proper CS degree teaches you how to think Any degree that claims it teaches you how to think should ring the snake-oil alarm. > how to solve insanely hard problems, and how to do so with a team of other smart people - often with different personalities So how do they teach that? Or does that just mean they got a few group projects, where smart people bump into each other but don't really learn to solve problems i…

Well, philosophy more or less stakes its claim to value as an undergraduate program solely on that premise. Whether it actually teaches one to think, what exactly that means, and whether it's possible to teach someone to think who hitherto didn't know how to think, are of course questions that trouble it, but they're all distinct and seemingly empirical issues.

Re: Computer science is now the top major for women at Stanford University

#85

Post by kelukelugames »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #78
brighteyes wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's obvious that diversity can be both good and bad. A team where everyone speaks a different language is very diverse, but not effective, since there is no communication. One in which they at least share some common language which for all of them is a second language, not with full fluency, would be able to function, but likely not as efficiently as one in which everyone speaks the same language as their mo…

It's hardly clear to me that ethnic diversity helps in any way for most companies. Several people at my current company told me they were excited that I'd be providing diversity. I asked them what they thought that would bring them, and after pressing the issue I realized they had no clue. I have no clue either. Some unique perspectives I bring: I favor rigid APIs over close team communication, I favor Bayesian stati…

It's good PR okay?!?! Makes us feel less guilty or something like that.

Re: Computer science is now the top major for women at Stanford University

#86

Post by vectorpush »

Natsu wrote: post #50
mitchty wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Umm, what? Do we say this kind of crap to Lawyers? Doctors? Engineers? (scratch the last one i'm sure we do say this kind of crap to them) Why must programming be such a soul sucking life encompassing thing? It doesn't matter if you're a woman or man, this stupid mindset that somehow the only way to be a programmer is to be a stereotype needs to be launched into the sun and forevermore forgotten. Just today I met a g…

Bad code causes real harm to everyone else on your team, so coders have more incentive to worry about the skill of their coworkers than other professions do. You don't need to be nerdy for that, just good, but the two are correlated because you gain skill if you willingly spend all of your free time on technical stuff. As for workload, lawyers and doctors tend to be overworked and honestly that's really not okay for…

> Bad code causes real harm to everyone else on your team, so coders have more incentive to worry about the skill of their coworkers than other professions do.

There isn't anything unique that bad code inflicts on your co-workers that isn't analogous to the problems faced by most people who have to deal with incompetent coworkers.

Re: Computer science is now the top major for women at Stanford University

#87

Post by brighteyes »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #78
brighteyes wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's obvious that diversity can be both good and bad. A team where everyone speaks a different language is very diverse, but not effective, since there is no communication. One in which they at least share some common language which for all of them is a second language, not with full fluency, would be able to function, but likely not as efficiently as one in which everyone speaks the same language as their mo…

It's hardly clear to me that ethnic diversity helps in any way for most companies. Several people at my current company told me they were excited that I'd be providing diversity. I asked them what they thought that would bring them, and after pressing the issue I realized they had no clue. I have no clue either. Some unique perspectives I bring: I favor rigid APIs over close team communication, I favor Bayesian stati…

I agree it might not help in all cases. But ethnic diversity can obviously help in marketing, assuming the target audience has multiple ethnicities, which is often the case. Aside from marketing, it might help less as you get more and more technical, but it might still help in areas in the "middle" like product design, etc.

Re: Computer science is now the top major for women at Stanford University

#88

Post by jdavis703 »

codeisawesome wrote: post #75
java000 wrote: post #58

I wonder how much of the underrepresentation of women in this field is due to it being low prestige relative to other formerly male-dominated fields such as medicine or law into which women have made substantial inroads, because women seem much less willing to enter male dominated fields, however well-paying, if they lack prestige (electricians would be an example). If I'm correct, then the very same media outlets la…

Where have you seen Media outlets talking about Programmers are "geeks" or "nerds"? I recall The Register calling scientists "boffins" but not using the other two words for Coders. I have absolutely no problem with "Coder". At the risk of sounding grand and dandy, I think people realize the impact Code has on their lives, and being called a coder makes me very happy. I agree with your apprehension over Geek & Nerd, t…

Perhaps it's not prestige so much as risk-aversion. Programming is a very cyclical industry (akin to oil or construction), whereas there's always a need for doctors and to a lesser extent lawyers.

Edit: Certainty this isn't the only reason to choose another career besides software, I just thought I'd respond to prestige as a particular reason.

Re: Computer science is now the top major for women at Stanford University

#89

Post by dublidu »

ivanca wrote: post #73

What's with the obsession of gender equality by women in high paying jobs?, is never about lack of women in sewer maintenance or coal mining, or bugs exterminators, or firemen (firewoman? Is that even a word?). Is always CEOs or STEAM jobs at silicon valley. That's a very narrow and convenient definition of "equality" isn't it?

Because CEOs and other higher paying jobs impact the world we live in. Women need to be represented in high impact jobs so that we don't have a world designed entirely by men.
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