Funny how this coming down to software vs "hardware" departments.
Except not so funny as scapegoats will lose their jobs and benefits.
No way software people did this in a bubble.
Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating
131–140 of 259 posts
Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating
#132Nope, definitely systemic within the company. The engine is a system that must meet certain requirements. The standard way of meeting those requirements is to have a urea injection system. That's what the competitors in the US do; it's also what Subaru, for example, don't do, and they don't sell into the US market. In order to pull off this little 2-person hack that Horn alleges, those couple of software engineers wo…
Actually, the Passat has urea injection and is implicated as well -- though it didn't exceed emissions by as much as cars without aftertreatment. And the "couple of engineers" was in reference to the head of engineering and another guy. It wasn't implicating rogue low-level engineers. http://www.businessinsider.com/this-is-the-real-cause-of-the...
Independently tested Peugeots also have urea injection, but delay injecting it for 10-20 minutes when on the road, and only do it in bursts.
Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating
#133I just today listened to the BBC Bottom Line Special [1] on this, and their guests, one who used to run Jaguar, and an expert on VW, don't buy it. Their argument is that the engineers in VW could have done a proper job, but the technology would add another $500 to each vehicle, and VW must have been looking for a way not to spend the $500. And all the other VW engineers would ask "How did you do it?". [1] http://www.…
They actually did have an answer to "How did you do it?"
The idea was that only DEP and EGR was needed for the smaller TDIs simply because they burned less fuel so produced less emissions across the board. That's not enough to meet current limits, but VW claimed they had better CDI that solved it. They got many patents related to that and other companies even licensed it. But how did they get such good performance, the lines was due to the turbo and the tests did not really spool that all that much.
Turns-out it was baloney, but that's how they explained it at least.
Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating
#134Do we think VW are the only car manufacturer doing this? I very much doubt it. They're just the first to get caught. Where rules stand in the way of profit, they get bent or broken. Banking, automotive industry... which next? Oil? Housing? Pfff ... come on, we all know they're rotten, it's just a question of how rotten and whether it comes out. I suspect it's the tip of the iceberg for the auto industry. Whether we g…
Why are so many people keen on defending VW with the claim "if VW are doing it, everyone else must be"? That dilutes the severity of this problem. I've seen several threads on HN meant to do this.
Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating
#135Earlier quoted context omitted.
And you're not familiar with what happened when a 3rd party (Michael Barr) was allowed to FINALLY look inside Toyota's engine code and determine the cause of the "Unintended Acceleration" problem: " Barr checked the [Toyota] source code against MISRA’s 2004 edition and found 81,514 violations. " http://www.safetyresearch.net/blog/articles/toyota-unintende...
The model year 2005 Camry in question from the trial would have been made available in 2004, and the electronic throttle control system was designed prior to 2004 (IIRC, the ETC design was carried forward from the previous model). How does it makes sense to apply MISRA-C:2004 in this case, especially when the Toyota ETC in question was admittedly not designed under MISRA-C:2004 nor prior MISRA-C revisions? It is inac…
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Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating
#136Earlier quoted context omitted.
Doesn't it blow your mind that there are no "standards of engineering" or whatever for software? There's no licensure body for software engineers who build software running your car, and therefore no accountability on a personal level. When an engineer builds a bridge, she has to personally sign off on the bridge, saying it's safe, and is risking not only her professional career, but I think she can also be jailed an…
Does any one really thinks that true? http://www.ldra.com/en/software-quality-test-tools/group/by-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Industry_Software_Reliab... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MISRA_C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_26262
YOU STOP THAT RIGHT NOW.
OUR LORD AND SAVIOR UNCLE BOB MARTIN SEZ WE NEED STANDARDS BEFORE THE GUBBERMINT MAKES US DO IT.
FOR THE LOVE OF DO NOT CONTINUE POINTING OUT THAT STANDARDS HAVE NECESSARILY SPRUNG UP IN SEGMENTS OF THE INDUSTRY THAT INVOLVE RISK.
UNCLE BOB WILL FIND YOU... UNCLE BOB KNOWS ALL, SEES ALL... PUNISHES ALL.
/end sarcasm
Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating
#137Do we think VW are the only car manufacturer doing this? I very much doubt it. They're just the first to get caught. Where rules stand in the way of profit, they get bent or broken. Banking, automotive industry... which next? Oil? Housing? Pfff ... come on, we all know they're rotten, it's just a question of how rotten and whether it comes out. I suspect it's the tip of the iceberg for the auto industry. Whether we g…
Why are so many people keen on defending VW with the claim "if VW are doing it, everyone else must be"? That dilutes the severity of this problem. I've seen several threads on HN meant to do this.
> That dilutes the severity of this problem.
No, it actually increases the severity of this problem. One car manufacturer cheating emissions vs. most car manufacturers cheating emissions.
Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating
#138Let me guess - was this a 2-person mistake, too?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/major-security-flaw-lea...
Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating
#139I've always wondered how something like this plays out legally: Can the engineers be somehow held accountable for writing something they were forced / asked to by their managers?
Yes, they can. Most engineers (in the US) have to take an ethics course that covers this. Just because your boss says do something, doesn't give you a pass.
My job title is "Software Engineer," but I have a Computer Science degree. I use the title because that's what people call it, but it's not an engineering discipline. I had to take some ethics-related course work as part of my general education requirements, but this mostly involved reading some philosophy that vaguely related to ethics.
Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating
#140Related side question. A few months before this leaked out I bought a brand new Golf TDI(diesel) and I'm in California where it sounds like my car is technically now illegal?
I have no idea what I should be doing at this point. I've been significantly overpaying on the note but not sure I should now. Does anyone have an idea what this means for the owners of the vehicles in question?