Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating • Hacker News Board

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#121

Post by rconti » Thu, Oct 08, 2015, 7:37 PM UTC

nmrm2 wrote: post #110

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really expected VW to do better in handling this. Ignore whatever comes out of the VW USA guy. The investigations in Germany will most likely be more fruitful especially because police is involved.

Exactly. The most devastating part of all of this for me (a US citizen) is that the German CEO resigns in disgrace and there are ongoing criminal investigations in Germany, but in the USA the CEO holds fast and blames engineers. It seems like the German government is more competent that the US at enforcing laws against corporations, even when those laws are USA laws... *EDIT: This comment is poorly worded. What I mea…

You realize this is the exact opposite of what the rest of the world is saying, right? Is this the first article you've read on the matter? I've been following it with great interest, and many others have expressed shame that it's the US that is catching a European company cheating, and threatening prosecution.

This all happened because of the work of the West Virginia lab, plus CARB and EPA's investigation, and the EPA's refusal to issue an emissions certification to 2016 diesel VW passenger cars which has led to likely tens of thousands of un-sellable cars sitting on US dealer lots.

The German government has been shown to have looked the other way repeatedly and to be complicit in fighting on behalf of the automakers instead of the environment.

The European emissions and mileage tests have been shown to be an utter and complete sham.

The story you're peddling is really the exact opposite of reality. Take a look around at the other stories that have been posted on HN on the matter.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#122

Post by selimthegrim » Thu, Oct 08, 2015, 7:39 PM UTC

dogma1138 wrote: post #80

twblalock wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I know of the car industry, coding standards are very low. I don't think any car companies would look good if their code was audited by professional software engineers in other fields.

Then you don't know the motor industry very much as it has very strict coding standards like ISO 26262, the code has to be audited internally and by certified 3rd parties with every release to meet the development cycle requirements of the standards. http://www.ldra.com/en/software-quality-test-tools/group/by-... The industry also has specific coding standard for every language that is used in embedded systems like M…

And this would be why Toyota engineers _forgot which direction their stack was growing in_ and shit all over MISRA-C (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10355200)?

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#123

Post by RealityVoid » Thu, Oct 08, 2015, 7:39 PM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #20

Laaw wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But also probably true, regardless of this specific situation.

From what I know of the car industry, coding standards are very low. I don't think any car companies would look good if their code was audited by professional software engineers in other fields.

I have seen both very good code and very bad code. Standards are in place for making it good but it really depends the most on who's implementing it and the SW team culture.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#124

Post by jessaustin » Thu, Oct 08, 2015, 7:40 PM UTC

dayjah wrote: post #27

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I don't buy this one bit. If those engineers feared for their jobs because the cars wouldn't pass, I bet those engineers could have left VW and found better jobs. Nobody needs that kind of stress. I think it is cowardice to blame them.

This is probably a little reactionary, but can we just stop for a second and admire the difference in American CEO's versus his European counterpart? The latter resigns immediately as a way of accepting he is ultimately responsible, the former points fingers. This is a blatant example of why the tide of opinion is turning against those with the most wealth.

The cars were designed in Germany, weren't they? (If not, excuse my shock to find we've been subjected to misleading advertising.) I doubt the engineers reported to the USA guy.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#125

Post by rconti » Thu, Oct 08, 2015, 7:41 PM UTC

andmarios wrote: post #50

How could some engineers cheat the entire VW corporation? Germans are known for their ridiculously meticulous standards and testing. VW should have many in-house and external-independent labs performing tests. The engineers who write the ECU code have a great distance from the mechanics who test every engine and car batch from their production line. How did they never tested and engine entirely; power, emissions, con…

"A couple of high-level engineers.." http://www.businessinsider.com/this-is-the-real-cause-of-the...

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#126

Post by rconti » Thu, Oct 08, 2015, 7:41 PM UTC

tn13 wrote: post #5

Does not matter. The people at top are responsible.

He's not at the top of the corporation, just of the US operations. He might well not have known.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#127

Post by jonknee » Thu, Oct 08, 2015, 7:44 PM UTC

johansch wrote: post #108

jonknee wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The (now resigned) CEO prided himself on being an engineer and in depth knowledge. I don't believe he didn't know how VW was able to market clean diesel engines in the US without having a clean diesel emission system for them. His big thing was to be the largest car maker and he needed to juice US sales to get there. He had to have spent a lot of time on US strategy. The shitty part is that he succeeded--they became…

http://www.volkswagenag.com/content/vwcorp/content/en/the_gr... "Winterkorn’s professional career began in 1977 as a specialist assistant in the research division "Process Engineering" at Robert Bosch GmbH. From 1978 to 1981 he headed the refrigerant compressor development group "Substances and Processes" at Robert Bosch GmbH and Bosch-Siemens-Hausgeräte GmbH. In 1981 Winterkorn joined AUDI AG as assistant to the Mem…

So much for quality assurance!

He was also known as a micromanger, I just don't see how he didn't somehow figure out that his entire clean diesel strategy was bullshit.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#128

Post by ihsw » Thu, Oct 08, 2015, 7:44 PM UTC

Volkswagen just ensured software developers would avoid them like the plague.

Why write code for a company that won't protect you from the mistakes of upper management?

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#129

Post by austinjp » Thu, Oct 08, 2015, 7:46 PM UTC

Do we think VW are the only car manufacturer doing this? I very much doubt it. They're just the first to get caught.

Where rules stand in the way of profit, they get bent or broken. Banking, automotive industry... which next? Oil? Housing? Pfff ... come on, we all know they're rotten, it's just a question of how rotten and whether it comes out.

I suspect it's the tip of the iceberg for the auto industry. Whether we give a damn, and whether we can or will do anything about it remains to be seen.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#130

Post by OopsCriticality » Thu, Oct 08, 2015, 7:49 PM UTC

joezydeco wrote: post #91

dogma1138 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you don't know the motor industry very much as it has very strict coding standards like ISO 26262, the code has to be audited internally and by certified 3rd parties with every release to meet the development cycle requirements of the standards. http://www.ldra.com/en/software-quality-test-tools/group/by-... The industry also has specific coding standard for every language that is used in embedded systems like M…

And you're not familiar with what happened when a 3rd party (Michael Barr) was allowed to FINALLY look inside Toyota's engine code and determine the cause of the "Unintended Acceleration" problem: " Barr checked the [Toyota] source code against MISRA’s 2004 edition and found 81,514 violations. " http://www.safetyresearch.net/blog/articles/toyota-unintende...

The model year 2005 Camry in question from the trial would have been made available in 2004, and the electronic throttle control system was designed prior to 2004 (IIRC, the ETC design was carried forward from the previous model). How does it makes sense to apply MISRA-C:2004 in this case, especially when the Toyota ETC in question was admittedly not designed under MISRA-C:2004 nor prior MISRA-C revisions?

It is inaccurate to claim Michael Barr determined the cause of Toyota's unintended acceleration: he proposed a possible failure mode that was persuasive to a lay jury. His proposed failure mode didn't leave a DTC, so there's no way to actually know if his proposed failure mode actually happened in this case (or in any other).