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Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

reuters.com

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Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#51

Post by csarsam »

ohpea wrote: post #38
JustSomeNobody wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they can. Most engineers (in the US) have to take an ethics course that covers this. Just because your boss says do something, doesn't give you a pass.

Do you have a source for ethics education and engineering? I've never heard of this being something that most engineers are taught (in the US).

My CS program contains a 1 credit hour course on ethics in computing. I believe this is required as part of the ABET accreditation process: http://www.abet.org/accreditation/accreditation-criteria/cri...

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#52

Post by zardo »

1971genocide wrote: post #24
cryptoz wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't a direct comparison, but after World War II it was decided clearly that soldiers are not protected by saying "my boss told me to do it" when the commit war crimes or other atrocities. This is now called the Nuremberg defense and it holds no water at all. The same principle applies here, in a general sense - but it's sufficiently different in practice, I wonder how it would be treated too.

Hyperbole much ? When a soldier is ordered to torture - its clearly wrong to do so. Its a question of human ethic. Is it the responsibility of the software engineer to know the exact level of NO_2 0.001 or 0002 that he should be coded into their product ? Also a software engineer doesn't exist in a vacuum. There is a whole testing regime. Why should the coder be solely responsible ?

Engineers aren't solely responsible, but... Did you software guys not take engineering ethics classes? You have a responsibility to society to consider health and safety of the public, even if it means losing your job.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#53

Post by Uhhrrr »

yitchelle wrote: post #17

These are worrying times for VW if the new CEO to say something like this. Many VW engineers will be considering leaving if VW is going find a couple of engineers as scapegoats, and not be back them up.

Presumably there are a couple of engineers who deserve some of the blame, but wow, what better way to say "Our culture is poison". Both because they're throwing independent contributors under the bus, and because he's saying the culture is such that the engineers would think it's OK.

To be fair, I think he might not have meant it to come out that way.

EDIT: Looking again at the article, it seems like the US CEO isn't even aware of this: "The German automaker has suspended 10 senior managers, including three top engineers, as part of its internal investigation." So VW doesn't necessarily have a poisonous culture. But they do have a US CEO who doesn't prepare when he testifies to Congress.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#54

Post by happyscrappy »

andmarios wrote: post #50

How could some engineers cheat the entire VW corporation? Germans are known for their ridiculously meticulous standards and testing. VW should have many in-house and external-independent labs performing tests. The engineers who write the ECU code have a great distance from the mechanics who test every engine and car batch from their production line. How did they never tested and engine entirely; power, emissions, con…

This is even more unreal given their ad campaign "Truth in Engineering".

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#55

Post by karlkatzke »

eridius wrote: post #48
taylodl wrote: post #2

"This was a couple of software engineers who put this in for whatever reason," - I'm not buying it. What would be their motive compared say to VW's motive? VW has a heck of a lot more motive for falsifying emissions than do "a couple of software engineers." Even if you were to argue the engineers were somehow fearful for their jobs that's still VW's problem because they're the ones who created that work environment i…

Just because VW might have more motive to do this doesn't automatically mean that they're lying when they say it was the fault of individual engineers. Guilt is not determined by "who has the most motive", it's determined by who actually did it. Now it may very well be true that VW is lying and it was a corporate decision. But it's not completely implausible that this really was the decision of a few individual emplo…

If there's three or more engineers, said engineers could have colluded to put the code in.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#56

Post by oldmanjay »

zardo wrote: post #52
1971genocide wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hyperbole much ? When a soldier is ordered to torture - its clearly wrong to do so. Its a question of human ethic. Is it the responsibility of the software engineer to know the exact level of NO_2 0.001 or 0002 that he should be coded into their product ? Also a software engineer doesn't exist in a vacuum. There is a whole testing regime. Why should the coder be solely responsible ?

Engineers aren't solely responsible, but... Did you software guys not take engineering ethics classes? You have a responsibility to society to consider health and safety of the public, even if it means losing your job.

We "software guys" aren't required to do anything at all aside from know how to make software. I can't even imagine how to change that, the tools to learn to make software are federated widely and universities have nothing like a monopoly on them.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#57

Post by dohertyjf »

What a classic terrible management move. I worked at a ski shop in college that also sold (really bad) used ski equipment on eBay. One time the lead manager accidentally let a lot of stock go live with a $1 minimum. They realized it and went back in under different accounts and bid them all up. When eBay caught them, they blamed the employees for it (myself and 4 others), who all had nothing to do with it.

We all quit the next day. Who wants to work for someone like that?

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#58

Post by twright0 »

zardo wrote: post #52
1971genocide wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hyperbole much ? When a soldier is ordered to torture - its clearly wrong to do so. Its a question of human ethic. Is it the responsibility of the software engineer to know the exact level of NO_2 0.001 or 0002 that he should be coded into their product ? Also a software engineer doesn't exist in a vacuum. There is a whole testing regime. Why should the coder be solely responsible ?

Engineers aren't solely responsible, but... Did you software guys not take engineering ethics classes? You have a responsibility to society to consider health and safety of the public, even if it means losing your job.

Most 'software guys' have academic backgrounds in computer science, which typically doesn't include anything like engineering ethics. An outright 'Software Engineering' degree might include something like that, but it's definitely emphasized far less than it would be in something like mechanical or civil engineering.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#59

Post by kabdib »

"This was a couple of software engineers who put this in for whatever reason"

This was a system. A complex one. No way it was done by a couple of guys at 2AM, or whatever. This has to have been inter-group collusion, and management is in CYA mode and shoving individuals under the bus.

VW has gone from being a cravenly stupid company that is going to be fined billions of dollars, to a place where I suggest it is in every engineer's best interest to resign, and the earliest opportunity they can manage.

Re: Volkswagen's U.S. head: individuals engineered emissions cheating

#60

Post by randcraw »

eridius wrote: post #48
taylodl wrote: post #2

"This was a couple of software engineers who put this in for whatever reason," - I'm not buying it. What would be their motive compared say to VW's motive? VW has a heck of a lot more motive for falsifying emissions than do "a couple of software engineers." Even if you were to argue the engineers were somehow fearful for their jobs that's still VW's problem because they're the ones who created that work environment i…

Just because VW might have more motive to do this doesn't automatically mean that they're lying when they say it was the fault of individual engineers. Guilt is not determined by "who has the most motive", it's determined by who actually did it. Now it may very well be true that VW is lying and it was a corporate decision. But it's not completely implausible that this really was the decision of a few individual emplo…

Like NASA, auto companies like VW produce a TON of documentation on all phases of design and engineering. This is especially true when it comes to regulation-sensitive processes like emissions testing.

As someone who has worked in a comparably highly regulated industry (pharma) I can state with full confidence that Mr Horn is a lying bastard.

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