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Libertarian communism

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61–70 of 90 posts

Re: Libertarian communism

#61
post #35
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communism has executed exactly 0 people. Communism is just an economic system, don't confuse it with the totalitarian dictators who may have used it. America has murdered, tortured, and committed genocide and terrorism against countless people, but that's not directly related to the economic system. Capitalism has been responsible for slavery, sweatshops, child labor, pollution, etc. On the other hand, it also brough…

Communism is system that via implementation details tends to result in totalitarianism. If you have a central place to plan the economy to distribute via need, that place is going to be heavily concentrated in power. And due to human nature that tends to be abused. Capitalism, and markets don't have a central place to plan to economy. Power is decentralised via companies, and production controlled via market incentiv…

Slavery was de-centralised evil on a massive scale. The genocide of the Native Americans was largely decentralised, as part of the "cost" of land acquisition. Global warming has de-centralised causes.

Relying on people (government or corporations) to do the right thing won't work. You need a system that cannot fail by design. Some checks and failsafes to guarantee the worst cannot happen at the government or individual level.

As an example you can look at studies tackling accounting fraud. Whether the accountant is managing thousands or billions of dollars doesn't change his/her odds of stealing from the company much. Adding a second accountant to sign off on large purchases and check each other does.

Re: Libertarian communism

#62
post #35
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communism has executed exactly 0 people. Communism is just an economic system, don't confuse it with the totalitarian dictators who may have used it. America has murdered, tortured, and committed genocide and terrorism against countless people, but that's not directly related to the economic system. Capitalism has been responsible for slavery, sweatshops, child labor, pollution, etc. On the other hand, it also brough…

Communism is system that via implementation details tends to result in totalitarianism. If you have a central place to plan the economy to distribute via need, that place is going to be heavily concentrated in power. And due to human nature that tends to be abused. Capitalism, and markets don't have a central place to plan to economy. Power is decentralised via companies, and production controlled via market incentiv…

> If you have a central place to plan the economy to distribute via need, that place is going to be heavily concentrated in power.

And this is why there is a left/right split within socialism, where the left wing - anarchists, libertarian socialists, left communists/libertarian communists, and a wide range of people using similar terms - argue for decentralisation and voluntary association as essential to safeguard the success of a socialist revolution.

You will also find that a portion of these ideologies argue for market mechanisms to various extents. There is nothing inherent in socialism that demands central planning. In fact, in most left socialist ideologies there would be no central organ with the power to impose central planning.

Even right wing socialists like the Bolsheviks were ambivalent about centralised planning to begin with, and initially did so out of pressing needs: They imposed strict planning initially during the civil war because a lot of people - the vast majority of who had either voted for other socialist parties (SR and the Mensheviks both did vastly better with the peasants than the Bolsheviks did) or the bourgeois parties in the 1917 elections - didn't exactly go out of their way to help provide resources to the Bolshevik government. But as soon as the threat of the civil war was over, Lenin introduced "New Economic Policy" that liberalised the economy substantially, undid a lot of the centralisation and allowed for a limited market economy. Lenin indicated he believed NEP, or variations, would need to be in place for decades. It was Stalin that led the extreme centralization under the Bolsheviks, after Lenins death.

But in any case: In the case of the Bolsheviks, the abusive concentration of power started with their coup d'etat against the democratically elected socialist government after the Bolshevik losts the preliminary elections in 1917, not with their subsequent changes to the economic system; by then it was far too late.

> You can have evil people as heads of organisations but their power tends to be limited.

And this was a central aspect of the left/libertarian socialist/communist/anarchist groups criticism against groups like the Bolsheviks and theories like Lenins "democratic centralism" and idea of a "vanguard". It's a debate that raged already from the 1850's, and continued as the Bolsheviks and their associates started murdering left communists together with everyone else opposing them.

Re: Libertarian communism

#63
post #13

I have read the whole thing and I was really surprised that they didn't mention anything about individualism or non-authoritarian decentralized governance given the "libertarian" label in their name and unless I'm mistaken, they sound more collectivist-leaning than individualist-leaning and this is very troubling esp. for communists as they tend historically to favor heavy-handed measures to reach or realize their po…

As others have said the term 'libertarian' has historically and outside the USA had much more 'collectivist' connotations and early on bore much more resemblance to anarchist and communist movements- it recognized that controlling property and capital (or having it kept from you) was a factor in your individual liberty, could be used to force you to work, etc.

libertarian communist is to put it crassly an attempt to re-brand and re-merge the anarchist and socialist traditions (which are much more diverse than mao and stalin) and to remove the supposed schizm between libertarianism and communism. not to propose any single template but to stop taking for granted the current social/political/economic orders and explore new ways of organizing society, etc.

Re: Libertarian communism

#64
post #45

This is basically a reboot of Marx's 19th century ideas with a trendy fresh look. In fact, he predicted this stage (which he called the "dictatorship of the proletariat") in the evolution of "Political Economy" that will, in his mind, eventually lead inexorably to "True Communism." [0] His "theory of alienation"[1] pretty accurately describes the angst that motivates the "workers" to want to move away from the Capita…

> read Das Kapital...sounds very good in theory, but always seems to fail during implementation

What fails during implementation? When leftists of his time demanded plans from Marx, he scoffed and said he was not August Comte, and refused to "write recipes for the kitchens of the future".

Marx and Engels did note changes in production led to changes in relations of production, and the superstructure (society). Some scientists think human hunting and fishing being what is was may have led to behavioral modernity 50,000 years ago. This led to a different form of primitive communism. 10000 years ago slavery and agriculture arose. 1600 years ago feudalism began to arise. 600 years ago capitalism as a dominant economic system began to arise.

Since men began painting pictures of horses in caves 50,000 years ago, the world has seen four major economic systems. The current one is capitalism. You seem to say it is immutable, the three previous ones were flimsy, but you seem to say our current economic system is the final one (although the previous one said that as well - the czar was claiming God, the creator of the world, ruler of a life after life had appointed him to his throne - claimed this until he was felled by the bullets of Bolshevik soldiers).

We are entering a world where I film a video, or record audio, or write code, push a button and with almost no cost in replication, can have it distributed to billions. We are entering a world where with continual improvements in robotics and AI, there may eventually be no job a human can do that an AI robot can't do (and perhaps do better - my memory, prefrontal cortex processing etc. is limited by bandwidth, space and this sort of thing in a way that a neural network translating speech to text is not). When there is no need any more for humans to farm, or mine, or even to program, will the world still be under a system of capitalism?

Re: Libertarian communism

#65
post #39
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The communist ideology resulted in that in the same sense that the capitalist ideology resulted in the genocide of Native Americans, the creation of largest imprisoned population in the world, and centuries of slavery. Or maybe we're misrepresenting things a bit. I've never read a thing about having to kill 100 million working class people in any of the books about communism and anarchism I read. plenty of communist…

Name one.

France

Re: Libertarian communism

#66
post #25
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I guess because communism, unlike nazism, doesn't have hatred hardcoded in ideology. On the other hand there is difference between theory and practice, you can have any ideological system, but if you depend on totalitarian dictator everything can fall apart - You depend on mood of that person/party. Just guessing ;-)

Fascism: kill millions of poor people for their race. Communism: kill millions of poor people for their politics. Fascism and communism are the same thing, if you define them by how many poor people they torture and murder.

[deleted]

Re: Libertarian communism

#67
post #6

The communist ideology resulted in the torture/execution/starvation of, what, 100 million working-class people? People don't go about saying "I'm a fascist, let's give it another go, maybe it will work this time, sorry about the millions of dead children". So why do people think it's OK to say they're a communist?

> People don't go about saying "I'm a fascist, let's give it another go, maybe it will work this time, sorry about the millions of dead children".

I guess you are unaware of the activities of Golden Dawn in Greece, or some of the more reactionary groups when meeting Syrian refugees in Europe etc. Or in the West Bank Kahanist hilltop settlements for that matter.

Until 10,000 years ago, the entire world was communist - not socialists saying they were working toward communism, but actual communism.

Is it OK for the communist hunter-gatherers in the Amazon wilderness to be the communists they are? Or should they get on their knees and say mea culpas for what some Laotian commissar did during a party purge half a century ago?

Re: Libertarian communism

#68
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you name one example of a communist system, where that metric is so small, it's negligible?

I'm not well versed in this part of history, but a quick Google search yielded Tito's Yugoslavia.

I'm not knowledgeable about history of the Balkans, so I've actually googled. Tito is traditionally portrayed as a mild and benevolent dictator, because he had a split with Stalin and it was beneficial during the Cold War.

However, looking a bit further reveals massacres between 1945 to 1947. The Wikipedia article about his secret police has "A List Of People Assasinated" by them...

And since we are talking about cherry-picking, this is a problem I have with people claiming to be "on the left": this selective blindness to obvious horrendous crimes by the regime and abuse of power that these things lead to.

Re: Libertarian communism

#70
post #5

Not entirely sure why libcom's the top of HN. They've been posting the same misrepresentations and misunderstandings of markets for years.

Who is misrepresenting? In 1962, the USSR had markets where people exchanged rubles for potatos, just as in the 1962 USA, there were markets where people exchanged dollars for currency. Not much difference marketwise, other than the currency.
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