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Libertarian communism

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Re: Libertarian communism

#31

Post by [deleted] »

PlzSnow wrote: post #17
Synaesthesia wrote: post #3

For a great and concise introduction to Libertarian Socialism here is a classic Noam Chomsky lecture from 1979 called The Government of the Future, in which he gives a justification for Libertarian Socialism, or Anarchism, as the natural and correct form of government for advanced industrial society from the classical liberal ideals of the enlightenment. He also compares the competing economic and social ideologies,…

Thanks for the link! Do you have a similar great and concise introduction to Nazism or other related extremist totalitarian ideologies?

[deleted]

Re: Libertarian communism

#32

Post by trengrj »

After reading the page it looks like a lot of communism and very little libertarianism.. Why is libertarianism mentioned? To me libertarianism requires at least giving people the freedom to buy and sell while this libcom site argues "the problem is that everything has a price".

Are we going to have to start using the words "classical libertarianism" soon? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism#Meaning...

Re: Libertarian communism

#33

Post by Synaesthesia »

TomGullen wrote: post #8

Libertarianism is hugely flawed. Garbage in, garbage out. I don't think anything incorporating hugely flawed philosophies is ever going to be a good idea.

This definition of Libertarianism should not be confused with what is called Libertarianism in the USA.

Re: Libertarian communism

#34

Post by TomGullen »

hga wrote: post #27
TomGullen wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many people have died under capitalism?

Everybody eventually dies under all these systems. How many people were executed by organs of the state, including prematurely dying in forced labor camps, is a much more relevant metric.

> including prematurely dying in forced labor camps, is a much more relevant metric

No, it's a metric that perfectly reinforces the argument if that's the only metric you cherry pick and insist people use.

Re: Libertarian communism

#35

Post by UK-AL »

JDDunn9 wrote: post #26
PlzSnow wrote: post #6

The communist ideology resulted in the torture/execution/starvation of, what, 100 million working-class people? People don't go about saying "I'm a fascist, let's give it another go, maybe it will work this time, sorry about the millions of dead children". So why do people think it's OK to say they're a communist?

Communism has executed exactly 0 people. Communism is just an economic system, don't confuse it with the totalitarian dictators who may have used it. America has murdered, tortured, and committed genocide and terrorism against countless people, but that's not directly related to the economic system. Capitalism has been responsible for slavery, sweatshops, child labor, pollution, etc. On the other hand, it also brough…

Communism is system that via implementation details tends to result in totalitarianism.

If you have a central place to plan the economy to distribute via need, that place is going to be heavily concentrated in power. And due to human nature that tends to be abused.

Capitalism, and markets don't have a central place to plan to economy. Power is decentralised via companies, and production controlled via market incentives. You can have evil people as heads of organisations but their power tends to be limited.

Re: Libertarian communism

#37

Post by dunkelheit »

nateabele wrote: post #4

> "Those of us with nothing to sell but our labour power" This is the weirdest thing about the dichotomy of Communism's popular resurgence in tech circles. In literal terms, our 'labour power' is fingers on a keyboard. Doesn't the real value in our work come from our ideas ? Technology is a lever for ideas, and that lever can be exploited by creativity in a way that few other areas of human endeavor can match. So, if…

Now you've basically made people wary to respond to you in fear of being labeled commies ;)

HN is supposed to be a forum for entrepreneurs but many of the visitors here are hired workers doing stuff for BigCos and that means trading our ability to close tickets for money. As a junior engineer you are told: "here is this nagging bug, go fix it", and as you become a senior you may hear something more glorious like: "ok we are going to expand to this new market so our system needs to scale tenfold. go figure how to do it" and reap some substantial material benefits along the way but it's really the same thing. Sure the whole process requires creativity and novel ideas in the small but nobody cares about your ideas in the large. I guess much of the sympathy for the workers' ideals of old comes from growing appreciation that we are in fact the lever - wielding great power but unable to do something meaningful with it.

"The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to make people click ads. That sucks." - Jeff Hammerbacher.

Re: Libertarian communism

#38

Post by Synaesthesia »

trengrj wrote: post #32

After reading the page it looks like a lot of communism and very little libertarianism.. Why is libertarianism mentioned? To me libertarianism requires at least giving people the freedom to buy and sell while this libcom site argues "the problem is that everything has a price". Are we going to have to start using the words "classical libertarianism" soon? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism#Meaning..…

This definition of Libertarianism should not be confused with what is called Libertarianism in the USA, which is an extreme protector of individual property rights. It is confusing because this definition arose originally in Europe and understood to be a form of socialism, not at all like the American definition.

Re: Libertarian communism

#39

Post by _glsb »

krisdol wrote: post #14
PlzSnow wrote: post #6

The communist ideology resulted in the torture/execution/starvation of, what, 100 million working-class people? People don't go about saying "I'm a fascist, let's give it another go, maybe it will work this time, sorry about the millions of dead children". So why do people think it's OK to say they're a communist?

The communist ideology resulted in that in the same sense that the capitalist ideology resulted in the genocide of Native Americans, the creation of largest imprisoned population in the world, and centuries of slavery. Or maybe we're misrepresenting things a bit. I've never read a thing about having to kill 100 million working class people in any of the books about communism and anarchism I read. plenty of communist…

Name one.

Re: Libertarian communism

#40

Post by _glsb »

TomGullen wrote: post #34
hga wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody eventually dies under all these systems. How many people were executed by organs of the state, including prematurely dying in forced labor camps, is a much more relevant metric.

> including prematurely dying in forced labor camps, is a much more relevant metric No, it's a metric that perfectly reinforces the argument if that's the only metric you cherry pick and insist people use.

Can you name one example of a communist system, where that metric is so small, it's negligible?
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