Live data from Hacker News

Microsoft’s Very Good Day

newyorker.com

101–110 of 247 posts

Re: Microsoft’s Very Good Day

#101
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what they did to destroy netscape (bundling a competing app with some other thing) One other point worth remembering: their browser, at least by version 3, was superior in speed and vastly superior in stability. They also ushered in the modern era of web applications by inventing XMLHttpRequest ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMLHttpRequest ). Netscape destroyed itself as much as Microsoft helped them by incompet…

I think a lot of people attribute a lot of Microsofts success to malice. In reality they have invested heavily in improving development methods, and it shows. One only have to read "I.M Wrights Hard Code", to understand exactly how many resources they allocate to improving the development cycle. And mind you this knowledge was distilled into text more than 10 years ago, but was part of the company for far longer. Re.…

but Netscape did the no. 1 mistake and tried to rewrite everything from scratch - I can not think of any working product where it is better to throw everything out and redo everything "the right way", rather than iteratively improving the code.

This emphasizes a restriction technical debt may place on your company if your starting foundation is sufficiently poor. Lotus did a combination of these two fatal mistakes, they had a small team of 7 or so guys write the first version in 8086/8 assembly language, and I'm not sure exactly what happened to that team, but their EMS memory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanded_memory) mid-life kicker was unauthorized work done by a couple of guys who had left the company by the time Lotus used it in desperation because their complete rewrite of the code in C was failing so badly.

For that matter, their first Macintosh program, Jazz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Jazz) was fatally flawed in development. They again wrote it in assembly "for efficiency", but without close communications between team members. Instead, every N days each would bring a floppy disk with their updated code and a merge would be done. This resulted in a lot of duplication of functionality and a bloated binary (hitting the platform where it was at its worst); which among other things resulted in user frustration at having to swap floppy disks all the time as the Wikipedia article mentions.

Apple is a partial counterexample: Jobs rode a small team hard in creating the first rather limited assembly OS, software wise they largely wandered around in the wilderness and failed the complete rewrite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copland_(operating_system)), then solved their problem by buying NeXT (and, oh, started bringing Jobs back into the fold, one of the very few non-programmers who can manage them), and doing a wholesale replacement with NeXTSTEP.

Not that MS does not do terrible things as a business. They do, exactly as any other business with that size. They have to or they will cease to exist in a few years.

Disagree. Microsoft's terrible things included screwing pretty much everybody who did business with them at the peer level, "You made a mistake, you trusted us," said 3Com founder Bob Metcalfe, quoting an unnamed Microsoft executive." (http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2002/pulpit_20020620_0007...). You do enough of this and you run out of healthy companies willing to do business with you, and life becomes prohibitively expensive. Which phone carrier is willing to partner with Microsoft after e.g. the Microsoft Kin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Kin and I'm sure other stunts?

I can't think of another company at this level like this. Apple and Oracle, like Microsoft companies built on the vision of a single man, share some characteristics, but Apple hasn't screwed over every supplier, and works well enough with phone carriers. Has Oracle tried to screw over big iron competitors after it bought Sun?

Re: Microsoft’s Very Good Day

#102
post #43
post #14

I struggle with changing my perception of Microsoft. I still characterize them by their Halloween documents and efforts to destroy Netscape. I would recommend the Surface to friends or family, which is a recent change. But I would never use Microsoft products. And not just because I'd be giving up years of Linux folk-knowledge. Childishly, when I watch a youtube video of someone far more skilled than me programming i…

I'm an MSDN subscriber, write C# all day and am sitting in front of Win8.1, writing this in IE11 with a Lumia 640 next to me. They are still utter bastards and I sleep with one eye open. Currently the tally of bad stuff is pretty high: Patent wars against competitors, forced bundling agreements, lock in despite the open specification stuff which is mostly just wrong, being fucked over on audits and licensing agreemen…

So I suppose google or apple is more appealing to your ethical tastes? At least the OP was willing to admit his distaste was based on a personal bias while you're trying to establish microsoft is somehow morally bankrupt in comparison to its competitors. Youre hating the players when you should be hating the game!

Re: Microsoft’s Very Good Day

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You dont necessarily need to. I still use MS Windows from time to time and my perception is that fundamentally they still dont know how to write software properly: in windows 10, opening a folder full of large video files takes a painful long time, while all it needs to do is to list some file names. I understand that it must be trying to extract some extra "useful" information from those large files, but the keys is…

> I understand that it must be trying to extract some extra "useful" information from those large files, but the keys is that it shouldnt block your UI from showing the basic stuff. That's weird, all the file-io operations in windows store apps are async for the very reason of not blocking the UI thread. How big was that folder? I'm geniuly curious.

Explorer is not a Windows Store app.

Re: Microsoft’s Very Good Day

#104
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, the tactics did offend people. And still do. But it was always a small number of people that cared about software freedom. The Microsoft consent decree was about restricting browser choice by shipping their own browser as default and claiming it was unremovable. By contrast, today Apple idevices not only ship with a browser but ban all competing browsers (via the ban on run-time compilation effectively banning JI…

"The Microsoft consent decree was about restricting browser choice by shipping their own browser as default and claiming it was unremovable" But it was technically unremovable, in those days you could open a windows explorer and type an URL and then you suddenly have internet explorer right into your window. It was an awful design flaw that costed them lagging apart after the post IE6 era. The other thing is that wou…

The intent was to "cut off Netscape's air supply":

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/business/longterm/micro...

Had they succeeded with the IE strategy, ActiveX controls would have the same endemic status as Flash does now, but unimplementable on any browser other than IE.

Re: Microsoft’s Very Good Day

#105
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an MSDN subscriber, write C# all day and am sitting in front of Win8.1, writing this in IE11 with a Lumia 640 next to me. They are still utter bastards and I sleep with one eye open. Currently the tally of bad stuff is pretty high: Patent wars against competitors, forced bundling agreements, lock in despite the open specification stuff which is mostly just wrong, being fucked over on audits and licensing agreemen…

So I suppose google or apple is more appealing to your ethical tastes? At least the OP was willing to admit his distaste was based on a personal bias while you're trying to establish microsoft is somehow morally bankrupt in comparison to its competitors. Youre hating the players when you should be hating the game!

Perhaps ironically I responded to your question before you wrote it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10352361

I have no hatred for anyone. Just you need to intimately know who you pays your bills at the end of the day.

Re: Microsoft’s Very Good Day

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You dont necessarily need to. I still use MS Windows from time to time and my perception is that fundamentally they still dont know how to write software properly: in windows 10, opening a folder full of large video files takes a painful long time, while all it needs to do is to list some file names. I understand that it must be trying to extract some extra "useful" information from those large files, but the keys is…

> I understand that it must be trying to extract some extra "useful" information from those large files, but the keys is that it shouldnt block your UI from showing the basic stuff. That's weird, all the file-io operations in windows store apps are async for the very reason of not blocking the UI thread. How big was that folder? I'm geniuly curious.

Async ops can still take a long time. (Actually that's probably why they were made async.) GP wants to update the UI, but the data isn't available yet. Even if UI is still responding to mouse clicks, it hasn't yet fulfilled the user's desire to display that data, so it is blocking in a sense.

Re: Microsoft’s Very Good Day

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

extorting cash for patents Standard practice among all the big players office document lock-in Standard practice among the players lucky enough to be able to do it (we now call it 'walled garden') ... My thesis is that all big tech firms now act as MS once did (or would if they could). But we're just used to it now.

On first read, I was going to ask to get a link to that thesis, thinking it was some Masters or PhD work. Every 10 years you're going to have the 'big-evil'. I'm with you 100% about it being standard practices in big companies, and 110% about users being complacent about accepting the walled garden. Also re: patents- IBM has a huge patent portfolio. Very little of it is used to patent troll. Those boxed-office Texas…

> (I can't install my legally purchased copy of OS X on my Intel machine? Really?)

I can't install Android on my iPhone as well, even if they have similar hardware

Unless it was advertised as capable of doing that, then you can't (of course you can with some hacking, but the idea is the same)

Does Apple have the same market share on phones as MS on the computing market of the 90s? So there you have it

Re: Microsoft’s Very Good Day

#108
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I'll never forgive them for their practices. They deliberately stifled competition, shafted developers, abused their position, and rubbed it in our faces. There's no coming back from that, and I'll gladly educate newcomers to IT on their ways. Let them die. The new CEO could be the second coming, you can't fix that cancerous attitude that is entrenched. They deserve to become obsolete, at the very least.

> cancerous attitude seriously?

Seriously. Microsoft has an unmatched record of screwing pretty much everyone who did business with them, and otherwise abusing their position in the market. Worse than IBM when IBM was in their position.

Re: Microsoft’s Very Good Day

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I'll never forgive them for their practices. They deliberately stifled competition, shafted developers, abused their position, and rubbed it in our faces. There's no coming back from that, and I'll gladly educate newcomers to IT on their ways. Let them die. The new CEO could be the second coming, you can't fix that cancerous attitude that is entrenched. They deserve to become obsolete, at the very least.

Out of curiosity, is it fair to assume you use hardware and software by a source you consider more ethical then? (your classification above rules out Apple and Google as well since they've both done less-than-stellar things )

I basically do my best yes, whilst having to earn a living in my chosen field. FreeBSD and Linux where I can advocate them.

Part of my current contract is migrating a customer away from SQL Server to Postgres, and it feels good. Automating powershell on aws instances doesn't feel so good, but it's temporary pain.

Re: Microsoft’s Very Good Day

#110
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an MSDN subscriber, write C# all day and am sitting in front of Win8.1, writing this in IE11 with a Lumia 640 next to me. They are still utter bastards and I sleep with one eye open. Currently the tally of bad stuff is pretty high: Patent wars against competitors, forced bundling agreements, lock in despite the open specification stuff which is mostly just wrong, being fucked over on audits and licensing agreemen…

So why are you programming in microsoft culture?

I am not OC's but with a similar position (writting this in W10, working on Windows store apps and with a Lumia 920 by my side)

I have several reasons but mostly subjective preferences. In my previous job I was a fulltime Linux developer, spending all day with an Ubuntu box. Linux is great until you have to patch it or fight with video drivers after an upgrade. I still develop components for Linux on the backend side but I am done with the desktop for a while.

Don't get me wrong that had happened to me in every platform I have worked with (yeah with MacOSX too). I guess my point is, after a while all platforms are more or less the same to me in the core (maybe Windows falls behinds on the console side but cmder is nice enough to make it up) and at the end is just the surface what would make a difference.

To me, Microsoft was the only one doing something different on the mobile side (not anymore though) so that was the candy that brought me to this side for now. I don't know if OC's reasons are more practical but for me are just subjective preference.

Post reply on HN