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Native Americans aren't genetically more susceptible to alcoholism

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Re: Native Americans aren't genetically more susceptible to alcoholism

#41
post #30
post #13

A person with a masters degree in social work assures us that the genetic evidence collected to date is bunk. >severe stress doesn’t just affect one generation: it is passed down, both socially — affecting parenting — and physiologically, by actually changing how children’s genes are read, which can alter both brain and body, a phenomenon known as epigenetics. Research on children of Holocaust survivors, for example,…

Why does it matter that she's a woman? That's not such a great way to initiate a criticism of another person's intellectual pedigree.

You are right that it was not relevant, and I modified my comment to "person" to avoid the insinuation.

Re: Native Americans aren't genetically more susceptible to alcoholism

#42
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lactose tolerance is believed to have developed in the last 5,000 - 10,000 years. There was recently a news story about the Inuit having an adaptation that is at most 20,000 years old [1], and probably unique to them. The deeper we dig into genes the more stuff like this we'll find. It wasn't a silly theory. It may be wrong , but it wasn't silly. [1]: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/science/inuit-study-adds-t...

Except that neither of those examples involve new substances. Lactose has been around for literally millions of years. Genes for dealing with it, or not, are part of what makes us mammals (ie things with mammary glans that nurse their young). And the gene found in the Inuit has not appeared recently. It exists nearly worldwide and is far older than its recent rise to prominence in the inuit. It has not evolved anew.…

The point is that there is demonstrated large-scale selection effects on the relevant time frames, and I fully expect more to emerge as we learn more and our powers of perception increase. It was not a dumb theory. It was merely wrong.

It's easy in hindsight to explain how obvious the correct answer is, but it doesn't count for much.

Re: Native Americans aren't genetically more susceptible to alcoholism

#43
post #31
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the story of all humanity up until the last couple of centuries. Tribes, countries, empires killing and conquering. It's not a uniquely American phenomenon. It's still happening in many places today. I think we need to stop leaning on past atrocities (without endorsing or excusing them in any way) as an excuse for not being responsible adults in the here and now. We can't change the past, we can only live the…

> This is the story of all humanity up until the last couple of centuries. Tribes, countries, empires killing and conquering. It's not a uniquely American phenomenon. It's still happening in many places today. Americans (European settlers that is, but later Americans too) did it in an unprecedented scale -- similarly to European colonialists elsewhere at the same time. And unlike those older tribes which saw power fo…

Unprecedented seems a little strong:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_and_conquests

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic...

Re: Native Americans aren't genetically more susceptible to alcoholism

#44
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that neither of those examples involve new substances. Lactose has been around for literally millions of years. Genes for dealing with it, or not, are part of what makes us mammals (ie things with mammary glans that nurse their young). And the gene found in the Inuit has not appeared recently. It exists nearly worldwide and is far older than its recent rise to prominence in the inuit. It has not evolved anew.…

Why believe that it takes thousands of years to select and enhance a gene? We have selectively bred animals in decades to exhibit traits that were useful, and long before we had any concept of genetics. We have evidence of the production of beer dating back before the Pyramids - and beer and wine were staples of pre-modern diets in the old world, that everyone drank, at least in the form of watered wine and small-bee…

You are skipping through a few steps. The gene has to first appear. It has to be one of those many tiny little perturbations that appear every so often. It then has to give that organism some sort of advantage. For a gene controlling alcoholism, it would have to appear somewhere where alcoholism had some substantial impact on survivability ... and then spread out across europe, asia and africa giving some similar advantage to persons along the way else it die out.

I might be open if the old world suffered from widespread alcoholism (to the point of impacting survivability across classes) for the last 20,000 years, but is just didn't. Producing alcohol takes proper effort and resources. You only get there one you aren't starving anymore. Egypt and a few other areas capable of sustaining intensive agriculture were not the norm.

Re: Native Americans aren't genetically more susceptible to alcoholism

#45
post #31
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the story of all humanity up until the last couple of centuries. Tribes, countries, empires killing and conquering. It's not a uniquely American phenomenon. It's still happening in many places today. I think we need to stop leaning on past atrocities (without endorsing or excusing them in any way) as an excuse for not being responsible adults in the here and now. We can't change the past, we can only live the…

> This is the story of all humanity up until the last couple of centuries. Tribes, countries, empires killing and conquering. It's not a uniquely American phenomenon. It's still happening in many places today. Americans (European settlers that is, but later Americans too) did it in an unprecedented scale -- similarly to European colonialists elsewhere at the same time. And unlike those older tribes which saw power fo…

No, it's not at all unprecedented. That's the way the world worked until the mid 20th century.

Re: Native Americans aren't genetically more susceptible to alcoholism

#46

Given that strong alcoholic drinks have been around for at most a few thousand years it seems silly to assume that any group has yet evolved any genetic adaptations. Cultural adaptations are certainly a different question. I know of many native communities in my area (Canada) that have very specific substance abuse issues. They are tied to unique economic, sociological and even geographical* situations, but nobody ta…

>Given that strong alcoholic drinks have been around for at most a few thousand years it seems silly to assume that any group has yet evolved any genetic adaptations.

Evolution happens over very short time frames if the stress is great enough. I don't know if that's the case in this instance, but it's certainly plausible.

Re: Native Americans aren't genetically more susceptible to alcoholism

#47

I'd be interested in hearing from, say, a biologist or a medical doctor, too. But the article only interviews academics from social work and psychology. I'd like to see some links to research on genetics. The article links only research on environmental factors in addiction. The article's conclusion may well be right, but it's not convincing if you don't agree with the conclusion before reading it.

You can't really trust these press releases in general. A quick search turns up this: http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh301/3-4.htm The gist seems to be that although some groups do have different alcohol metabolizing genes, Native Americans don't differ from the general population, so their alcohol problems can't be explained by genetics. If you really want to get to the bottom of it, you'd need to spend an…

I don't find the genetic argument convincing. There are genes we know of that seem to be related to alcoholism and/or addiction, and native Americans don't seem to have them any more than anyone else. But that doesn't mean there aren't genes related to alcoholism we don't know about.

Re: Native Americans aren't genetically more susceptible to alcoholism

#48
post #27
post #13

A person with a masters degree in social work assures us that the genetic evidence collected to date is bunk. >severe stress doesn’t just affect one generation: it is passed down, both socially — affecting parenting — and physiologically, by actually changing how children’s genes are read, which can alter both brain and body, a phenomenon known as epigenetics. Research on children of Holocaust survivors, for example,…

> A woman with a masters degree in social work assures us that the genetic evidence collected to date is bunk. Perhaps you missed the whole: "In fact, there’s no evidence that Native Americans are more biologically susceptible to substance use disorders than any other group, says Joseph Gone, associate professor of psychology at the University of Michigan. American Indians don’t metabolize or react to alcohol differe…

"Associate professor of psychology"? Exactly what qualifies him to make that kind of statement?

Re: Native Americans aren't genetically more susceptible to alcoholism

#49
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why believe that it takes thousands of years to select and enhance a gene? We have selectively bred animals in decades to exhibit traits that were useful, and long before we had any concept of genetics. We have evidence of the production of beer dating back before the Pyramids - and beer and wine were staples of pre-modern diets in the old world, that everyone drank, at least in the form of watered wine and small-bee…

You are skipping through a few steps. The gene has to first appear. It has to be one of those many tiny little perturbations that appear every so often. It then has to give that organism some sort of advantage. For a gene controlling alcoholism, it would have to appear somewhere where alcoholism had some substantial impact on survivability ... and then spread out across europe, asia and africa giving some similar adv…

"For a gene controlling alcoholism, it would have to appear somewhere where alcoholism had some substantial impact on survivability"

No, it doesn't. It needs to be a gene that has an impact on alcoholism, but the thing being selected for could be something else entirely. Consider sickle-cell anemia. If you just look at it as the "sickle-cell anemia gene" you'll boggle at how it spread as far as it did, but that's because it's also the "malaria-resistance gene". If alcohol is introduced into a population that did not have widespread, ready access to it for long time frames, there's no guessing in advance what could happen as it interacts with arbitrary other adaptations that have never "seen" alcohol before.

I want to point out you keep boggling at how intrinsically impossible this all is, and I keep citing concrete examples of very similar things that happen. And I'll reiterate that my point is that it was a viable theory, until the facts contradicted it, not that it was certainly correct and certainly not that it's correct now. Simply that it was not a stupid theory. (Indeed, given that this is just one study I'd be glib even saying it's "disproved", it's merely one that we must Bayesian-update to a much smaller probability. But I wouldn't downgrade it to zero quite yet. We've got a lot of gene science left to learn. And as always happens, when we take a closer look, it always turns out to be more complicated than we thought...)

Re: Native Americans aren't genetically more susceptible to alcoholism

#50
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't really trust these press releases in general. A quick search turns up this: http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh301/3-4.htm The gist seems to be that although some groups do have different alcohol metabolizing genes, Native Americans don't differ from the general population, so their alcohol problems can't be explained by genetics. If you really want to get to the bottom of it, you'd need to spend an…

I don't find the genetic argument convincing. There are genes we know of that seem to be related to alcoholism and/or addiction, and native Americans don't seem to have them any more than anyone else. But that doesn't mean there aren't genes related to alcoholism we don't know about.

I think they're just debunking the notion that we have already found the "alcoholism gene" in Native Americans.
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