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Trading Meat for Tires as Bartering Economy Grows in Greece

nytimes.com

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Re: Trading Meat for Tires as Bartering Economy Grows in Greece

#41

Post by mc32 »

tomp wrote: post #35
runeks wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greece's monetary policy, if we can call it that, isn't the only problem in Greece. The Greek labor market is over-regulated, favoring the older generation over the younger, and corruption in government is widespread. Greece's government debt overload, and subsequent default, are just symptoms of this state of affairs. It certainly doesn't help, though, that the Greek people are practically forced to use their govern…

> favoring the older generation over the younger, and corruption in government is widespread This describes just about any Western capitalist democratic country.

And by implication you're saying this would not affect non western or non capitalist countries? So, in Cuba, Mongolia, Russia, Japan, Bolivia these things don't express themselves? Corruption, seniority, traditionalism....

I think degree matters a while lot. Yes, you can find all ills in most places, the question, is, is paralyzing, does it force or encourage people to leave or search for better places?

Re: Trading Meat for Tires as Bartering Economy Grows in Greece

#42

Post by bobcostas55 »

tomp wrote: post #35
runeks wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greece's monetary policy, if we can call it that, isn't the only problem in Greece. The Greek labor market is over-regulated, favoring the older generation over the younger, and corruption in government is widespread. Greece's government debt overload, and subsequent default, are just symptoms of this state of affairs. It certainly doesn't help, though, that the Greek people are practically forced to use their govern…

> favoring the older generation over the younger, and corruption in government is widespread This describes just about any Western capitalist democratic country.

Calling the Greek economy "capitalist" is really marginal. It's nothing like the European economies, but very similar to badly reformed ex-communist economies (think Russia, not Poland).

Re: Trading Meat for Tires as Bartering Economy Grows in Greece

#43

Post by elorant »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #16
cjensen wrote: post #15

Considering the habitual non-reporting of income that has been present in the Greek economy, my first thought is this is just another way to buy and sell stuff while avoiding VAT taxes. Depressing, if true. Are there any signs that the Greeks are learning to pay taxes as a patriotic duty to enable the supportive government they have come to appreciate?

Honest question: how do you teach a corrupt society to start paying taxes? The economy there works with the assumption that your tax load is light, so things like rents and price of goods reflect that. It would be difficult for people to go from paying 10% tax to a Eurozone typical 44% tax overnight. The economy would collapse instantly. I supposed you can slowly bring it in, but how? Who has the political capital? A…

Honest question: how do you teach a corrupt society to start paying taxes?

As a Greek citizen I can tell you that the general sentiment here is that the state has to show that they respect taxpayers' money. Which among other things means that the government will genuinely try to fight corruption (this hasn’t happened so far), red tape will be significantly reduced, corrupted public servants will go to jail and their properties will be confiscated etc. There is a huge mistrust between citizens and public sector and this up to a point motivates people to not pay what they should.

Of course from a certain perspective this can be perceived as a poor excuse to justify tax avoidance but as always the truth lies in the middle. In Greece there is no sentiment for common good, each one is on his own and that reflects in the way we perceive our obligations to the country. We’ll pay up to the point that we’ll have no problem with the law. If tax laws are not too strict, which was the case up to a few years ago, then people will look the other way.

Fortunately, the memorandum is forcing the government to take certain steps in solving many of those issues. Of course it will take time, but the path has been paved.

Re: Trading Meat for Tires as Bartering Economy Grows in Greece

#44

Post by tomp »

greggarious wrote: post #7

So, when stocking my bunker, what should I put in there that will have high barter potential?

Depends what you're preparing for.

If you're preparing just for a few days/weeks without "the grid", then obviously the most useful items are everyday consumables:

- toiletries: toilet paper, tampons, razors, soap, toothbrushes, toothpaste (although hard soap works as well), lenses & glasses

- medicine: antibiotics, plasters, vitamin C (and other vitamins), water filters or water purification tablets, first aid & trauma kit

- heat & light: lighters, matches, candles, flashlights (including headlamps and wind-up flashlights), batteries, solar chargers, clothing, gasoline, portable generators

- entertainment: radios, books, board games, alcohol, cigarettes

- food (obviously): rice, flour, pasta, honey, canned meat, canned & pickled (or otherwise preserved) food

Especially noteworthy are cigarettes (or cigarette boxes); IIRC, there were historical examples of societies using cigarettes as money - cigarettes are rather small and light, last for a long time, are hard to falsify, easy to verify, and have real-world utility.

For long-term "lawless" society, other things would be useful as well, such as seeds, guns & ammunition, communication equipment (walkie-talkies), books that explain how to do stuff ([1], [2]), all kinds of tools, instruments and equipment.

WARNING: all of the above is purely theoretical.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where_There_Is_No_Doctor

[2] http://www.amazon.com/Where-Women-Have-No-Doctor/dp/09423642...

Re: Trading Meat for Tires as Bartering Economy Grows in Greece

#45

Post by logfromblammo »

greggarious wrote: post #7

So, when stocking my bunker, what should I put in there that will have high barter potential?

  - bottled water     - canned foods      - baby formula
  - diapers           - toilet paper      - ethanol
  - tobacco           - opiates           - matches
  - lighters          - tampons           - candles
  - bar chocolate     - coffee, tea       - toothpaste
  - batteries

  - water filters     - freeze-dried food - multivitamins
  - porn magazines    - antipyretics      - disinfectants
  - analgesics        - antibiotics       - charcoal
  - suture kits       - bar soap          - knives

  - Ca(ClO)2          - ammunition        - seeds
  - salt              - tube socks        - gloves
  - lye               - iodine            - baking soda
  - lamp oil          - playing cards     - dice
  - rat snap traps

Re: Trading Meat for Tires as Bartering Economy Grows in Greece

#46

Post by riskneural »

aianus wrote: post #39
riskneural wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the disadvantages of the Euro - low inflation, no control over interest rates - with extreme volatility of demand thrown in?

Except, you know, Bitcoin is actually liquid and Greek EUR deposits are not. You can send $1 million in Bitcoin outside the country and buy an apartment somewhere stable or a stack of gold bullion. Not so with Greek EUR deposits. Not to mention EUR deposits in screwed up countries have volatility that puts Bitcoin to shame: http://www.rt.com/business/cyprus-crisis-bailout-deposit-631...

http://www.newsbtc.com/2015/05/14/increased-liquidity-on-bit...

Re: Trading Meat for Tires as Bartering Economy Grows in Greece

#48

Post by daemin »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #12
greggarious wrote: post #7

So, when stocking my bunker, what should I put in there that will have high barter potential?

Traditionally? Alcohol and Cigarettes. Although I think if you put an alchohol still in your bunker then you'd basically be able to print (pour?) your own currency over the long haul.

Yep, one of my friends is learning to brew beer, distil spirits, and farm his own food, so he'll be set for when the zombie apocalypse occurs.

Re: Trading Meat for Tires as Bartering Economy Grows in Greece

#49

Post by uno22 »

My perspective on tax: "Tax is the cost of using money (printed) by the government"

If the structure of using money breaks down, then it boils to trust, which the barter system adequately provides. The problem, now boils down to the quantification of barter units. Maybe time will solve that.

Re: Trading Meat for Tires as Bartering Economy Grows in Greece

#50

Post by Mz »

LoSboccacc wrote: post #32
Mz wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The online barter systems seem to be de facto creating an alternate currency. IIRC, the one profiled in the article uses "points" that are the equivalent of Euros (scanning, I can't verify this atm, but I read more than one article before submitting this one, so maybe I read it elsewhere). So if you have 600 points in your online account, you have the equivalent of 600 Euros to work with. I think it isn't Greece's mo…

D) evading sales tax

I thought about this overnight. I don't know Greek tax laws, but in the U.S., if you earn less than (iirc) $600/year from one source, you do not need to report it on your taxes. If you earn more than that, even from barter, you do need to report. A lot of people will not, a lot of people won't even realize they should, but at least in this country, you are supposed to.

If you are using an online service for this, there are records. That makes it easier to report or to be caught if you didn't report. So I am not going to automatically assume that all people engaging in barter a) need to report it (maybe they are below the reporting threshold) or b) won't report it.

Also, given that you can only get 420 Euros/week out of the bank, it looks to me like the main thing barter is doing is getting around that bottleneck. These transactions would not be happening at all without barter. So while in some sense, yes, it may make it easy to skirt around the question of taxes, it is not like it is some tax loophole and people are doing this to actively hide profits. They are doing it because they straight up do not have access to enough money to get their needs met.

Perhaps over time the tax issue will get worked out. Perhaps not. But these folks are just trying to survive in spite of economic collapse impeding their ability to do so. I see no reason to act like they are just criminal scum, trying to screw the government of tax dollars.

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