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Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

reuters.com

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Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#51

Post by switch007 »

inversionOf wrote: post #22
alan_cx wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that Mercedes and BMW have reasonable suspicion cast on them too.

Both of those platforms use Urea systems, as do larger and more expensive VW/Audio vehicles. The issue is purely in the small, inexpensive vehicles. The NOx problems were mostly resolved through the injection of urea into exhaust gases (e.g. AdBlue), dramatically reducing NOx emissions while leaving the efficiency and power unaffected. Urea systems add an extra cost and complexity to the vehicle though (not to mentio…

Not sure if there are USA/Europe differences with BMW's urea system (likely), but Blue Performance (urea system) is not standard on all BMW diesels in the UK (in 2014 anyway).

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#52

Post by binarycrusader »

inversionOf wrote: post #22
alan_cx wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that Mercedes and BMW have reasonable suspicion cast on them too.

Both of those platforms use Urea systems, as do larger and more expensive VW/Audio vehicles. The issue is purely in the small, inexpensive vehicles. The NOx problems were mostly resolved through the injection of urea into exhaust gases (e.g. AdBlue), dramatically reducing NOx emissions while leaving the efficiency and power unaffected. Urea systems add an extra cost and complexity to the vehicle though (not to mentio…

I don't understand this assertion. The two VW diesel (US) automobiles I've owned have had an AdBlue system. One was a base model Jetta TDI and the other a Passat TDI (which I now want rid of).

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#54

Post by abakker »

chr15 wrote: post #29
rygarfo wrote: post #14

What about the owners of VW cars that aren't affected by the consumption fraud. I would imagine the value of their cars will, regardless of the diesel engine, decrease with the saturation of people selling their cars or trying to return them. Is it possible for non-affected owners to be compensated as well for loss in market value as a result of the company's actions? Concerned Jetta owner here asking smarter people.

Would like to know this as well. I have a gasoline Golf and I'm concerned its depreciation has accelerated.

You could sell it now, and couch the sale in terms of having an unaffected, EPA compliant, car. If depreciation is your primary concern, then you can sell now and buy something with lower potential depreciation.

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#55

Post by onion2k »

swombat wrote: post #45

I feel it's worth making the point that everyone talking about penalties is avoiding: Penalties are pointless. Financial penalties applied to a company this size basically just get socialised. Either employees (generally innocent of this) lose their jobs as the company closes factories, or the price of future cars goes up, or even the company goes entirely bust in which case that doesn't actually help anyone at all.…

Alternatively, nationalise the company with no redress to the shareholders. They lose all their money, the company keeps on running so the jobs are kept (until the business shuts down or is sold at least), and customers aren't left without support. If the penalty for failing to ensure the company you invested in is losing your investment then perhaps shareholders would police their investments better.

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#56

Post by brianwawok »

nkassis wrote: post #38
brianwawok wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. I am not sure this would be the way to go on this. Really the car the consumer got was better (to them) than the product ordered. It had better gas mileage, and better performance than it should have had. The net loser in the trick was the environment (/ the world). If a company does a trick to make money and hurt the environment, the government should step in and make them pay, right? Like if I run a tire sho…

Could the fact that lower emission was a possible selling point and may have affected customer choice have an impact here? Some customer did feel cheated by this fraud since they bought the car in part for it's lower emission and fuel usage.

Ya I can totally see this side also. As a non-legal person, it seems harder to argue:

I expected 99x and 89y, but I got 120x and 70y

vs

You lied and spewed toxins all over the environment

as the first case requires some kind of weighting. Like if a pair of shoes advertises weighing 12 ounces, but they made a silent upgrade to only weight 11 ounces.. 99.9% of people are happy for that. The .1% of people who use shoes for boat anchors are not happy.

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#57

Post by PavleMiha »

onion2k wrote: post #55
swombat wrote: post #45

I feel it's worth making the point that everyone talking about penalties is avoiding: Penalties are pointless. Financial penalties applied to a company this size basically just get socialised. Either employees (generally innocent of this) lose their jobs as the company closes factories, or the price of future cars goes up, or even the company goes entirely bust in which case that doesn't actually help anyone at all.…

Alternatively, nationalise the company with no redress to the shareholders. They lose all their money, the company keeps on running so the jobs are kept (until the business shuts down or is sold at least), and customers aren't left without support. If the penalty for failing to ensure the company you invested in is losing your investment then perhaps shareholders would police their investments better.

As a shareholder, how are you supposed to police for this kind of situation? The shareholders were lied to as well.

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#58

Post by smnrchrds »

cbhl wrote: post #28
aw3c2 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope not, that would be insane. If a car is not worth its price when you buy it, don't buy it.

IIRC, that's not how car prices work. A new car on a lot is worth far more than a used car with exactly 0 miles driven on it.

I hear a lot that a car loses 10-50% of its value the moment it leaves the dealership, but I am somehow skeptical. If it is true I would love to buy a new used car right outside of, hell, even 50 miles after the dealership at half the price.

I think the truth is that it is so rare for a car to be sold at 0 miles that we don't really have a price point on it. It is effectively an illiquid good, so the pricing is just a meaningless number, because no one would sell their car at this fictitious price. Like how no one will bought 37 Signals for 100 billion dollars. [1]

[1] https://signalvnoise.com/posts/1941-press-release-37signals-...

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#59

Post by inversionOf »

binarycrusader wrote: post #52
inversionOf wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both of those platforms use Urea systems, as do larger and more expensive VW/Audio vehicles. The issue is purely in the small, inexpensive vehicles. The NOx problems were mostly resolved through the injection of urea into exhaust gases (e.g. AdBlue), dramatically reducing NOx emissions while leaving the efficiency and power unaffected. Urea systems add an extra cost and complexity to the vehicle though (not to mentio…

I don't understand this assertion. The two VW diesel (US) automobiles I've owned have had an AdBlue system. One was a base model Jetta TDI and the other a Passat TDI (which I now want rid of).

And the vehicles in question -- the ones that are causing VW these issues -- do not have any urea injection system. That's the whole point.

http://ask.cars.com/2012/11/why-do-some-volkswagen-diesels-u...

VW claimed to have a trick that removed the need for it on their smaller, lighter cars. But that trick was a trick that only allowed them to pass EPA tests.

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#60

Post by heygrady »

harrumph wrote: post #53

Does anybody know the specific purpose of defeating the pollution control? I never see this addressed. What positive user experience is produced? The car has faster pickup or better gas mileage or something else?

http://www.vox.com/2015/9/21/9365667/volkswagen-clean-diesel...
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