Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says • Hacker News Board

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#41

Post by arethuza » Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 4:16 PM UTC

a3n wrote: post #26

arethuza wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

International companies of any size aren't a single legal entity - bankrupting VW USA (which presumably sold the cars) is probably a limited liability subsidiary of VW - so it could go bankrupt without necessarily bankrupting the parent company.

If VW USA went bankrupt, and ceased to operate, then that loss of sales might contribute to a mothership bankruptcy or bailout.

I don't think US revenue for VW is that big - they could probably have no sales in the US and still have more revenue than GM globally.

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#42

Post by ibejoeb » Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 4:16 PM UTC

jsnathan wrote: post #24

jeffdavis wrote: post #4

What would happen if all the affected consumers demanded the full purchase price returned to them and returned their used cars? It seems clear that they would win, because they were fraudulent sales. But that would bankrupt VW, right?

I just took a quick look at WP [1], and it looks like they have over $350b in assets. Don't think it will bankrupt them, either way. Not to mention that they are probably "too big to fail" [2]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Too_big_to_fail

Even if it were flirting with bankruptcy, I don't think VW is integral to the economy. Specifically, I don't imagine anything beyond normal bankruptcy protections would be offered to VW, especially something to the extent of a bail-out. There are plenty of alternatives for VW customers.

That said, the US has bailed out the auto industry before to preserve American presence in the market. Germany may opt to do the same, but they are home to other successful automakers.

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#43

Post by switch007 » Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 4:16 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #8

crystalmeph wrote: post #5

I wonder if this will have an effect on Europe's appetite for diesel cars in general going forward. I know they're much more popular over there than here in the US.

Europe has been trying to move people away from diesel for a while now. The high pollution in some city centres (eg London) and the associated death rates are driving change.

Move away from old diesels (e.g. non turbo/pre common rail/smoking) or new diesels? New diesels are still very much seen as "green" in Europe (well, before the VW scandal).

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#44

Post by jakejake » Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 4:17 PM UTC

jwcooper wrote: post #32

jakejake wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'll be some firmware upgrade, the emissions will be fine but fuel economy will suffer by some minor amount. Then everyone will move on to the next tragedy. I don't really see a massive run on people trying to sell or return their car. I'm sure a few will to try to make a point, or perhaps to try to get a new car out of the deal. That's my prediction for the record!

Most people seem to be saying that it will be a simple software update to fix this issue, and everything will be fine other than some loss of power and fuel economy. Isn't it possible that running these engines at the EPA recommended levels just isn't possible? That if they were to run like this 100% of the time, reliability, mpg, or power would be greatly reduced for various reasons? There is a reason they took this…

I suppose none of us in the peanut gallery know for sure. Knowing that they battle for 1 mile per gallon on their fuel economy ratings, my guess is that it's a minor effect for a car owner, but a major effect on VW's marketing.

I read elsewhere that their technique for cleaning the exhaust can gunk up the filter more quickly too, so it might also change the maintenance schedule. Which, again, may not really be a huge issue for a car owner, but could impact VW.

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#45

Post by swombat » Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 4:24 PM UTC

I feel it's worth making the point that everyone talking about penalties is avoiding: Penalties are pointless.

Financial penalties applied to a company this size basically just get socialised. Either employees (generally innocent of this) lose their jobs as the company closes factories, or the price of future cars goes up, or even the company goes entirely bust in which case that doesn't actually help anyone at all. The only non-socialised effect of a penalty is to punish shareholders - who are also innocent of this (and arguably even that is socialised, since pension funds probably own large chunks of most car companies!).

The people who are guilty are the people who decided to install this software, who installed it, who kept it installed - and the people who were supposed to put in place checks to prevent this sort of fraud from happening, from the CEO on down.

The correct response for society, in my opinion, is not to try and apply a punishment to "the company", which is mindless and is only the product of people's decisions, but to make those people accountable. They were guilty of fraud, either directly (very serious) or by lack of diligence (somewhat less serious but still criminal). We have laws about fraud. Apply those laws, put those people in jail, and the next bunch of smartasses who think they can put fraudulent software in cars with this will think twice about it - and probably not do it.

In other words, this is a state, criminal matter. Approach this much like any other form of organised crime - investigate, offer reduced penalties for information, and put people who were guilty of this high-level organised crime in jail.

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#46

Post by noir_lord » Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 4:28 PM UTC

qyv wrote: post #35

DasIch wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not at all clear that they would win. There is an article by a German lawyer on the topic[1]. The tl;dr of it is, that given that the car works mostly as intended and that any damage to individual customers is little (if it even exists) customers won't get back the full purchase price and probably not even any money, especially if VW were to provide a fix. [1]: http://www.ferner-alsdorf.de/rechtsanwalt/zivilrech…

Seems to me that any 'fix' that lowers fuel economy would have a real and measurable damage on the owners in the way of increased fuel costs. Wouldn't this just be deflecting the problem from one area to another?

If I was VW I'd calculate the fuel economy difference between with fix and without fix, factor oil prices and inflation over life of the car and just offer drivers the difference.

It's be cheaper than a refund (which is unlikely) and would allow them to bring the cars back into compliance.

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#47

Post by benmanns » Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 4:29 PM UTC

dalke wrote: post #40

aw3c2 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope not, that would be insane. If a car is not worth its price when you buy it, don't buy it.

"Worth" includes an estimate of the future money one might get from a sale or trade-in. That estimate is of course fuzzy. The estimate of worth, and estimate of fuzziness, assumes that VW wasn't deliberately hiding crucial information from the market.

"its price" is also fuzzy, because total cost of ownership includes gas (affected) and maintenance (affected).

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#48

Post by DasIch » Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 4:30 PM UTC

qyv wrote: post #35

DasIch wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not at all clear that they would win. There is an article by a German lawyer on the topic[1]. The tl;dr of it is, that given that the car works mostly as intended and that any damage to individual customers is little (if it even exists) customers won't get back the full purchase price and probably not even any money, especially if VW were to provide a fix. [1]: http://www.ferner-alsdorf.de/rechtsanwalt/zivilrech…

Seems to me that any 'fix' that lowers fuel economy would have a real and measurable damage on the owners in the way of increased fuel costs. Wouldn't this just be deflecting the problem from one area to another?

It would only lower the fuel economy (as advertised), if they didn't apply the cheat during those tests. If they did, the cars fuel economy right now is higher than advertised.

Besides fuel economy heavily depends on load, driving style, trip length, conditions, where you are driving (city, autobahn, ...), how fast you are driving, which tires you're using and so on.

Even if there is a measurable change I think it would still be difficult to convince a court that this is a damage, a customer deserves to be compensated for.

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#49

Post by stellar678 » Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 4:30 PM UTC

tw04 wrote: post #33

dba7dba wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Globally? Electric cars will never reach that much consumers in Asia as it has in US. Very few people in Shanghai/Seoul/Tokyo own private garage to charge cars in over night. And this is why Toyota/Hyundai are stubbornly pushing Hydrogen cars.

That's as much a technology problem as anything else. If you line the streets with chargers, then have the car and charger interface with each other to report which car is actually charging, you can bill the owner. Whether or not the areas cars are parked have the appropriate wiring to facilitate chargers is another problem entirely. And quite frankly, I'm still skeptical our electric grid can handle everyone pluggin…

The effect of a significantly higher, controllable and predictable load will be nothing but positive for a strained grid. Electric cars are a great load because, unlike lighting and AC and most other household use, the energy doesn't need to be delivered at a specific time.

Re: Volkswagen rigged tests on 2.8M cars in Germany, Berlin says

#50

Post by happyscrappy » Fri, Sep 25, 2015, 4:31 PM UTC

swombat wrote: post #45

I feel it's worth making the point that everyone talking about penalties is avoiding: Penalties are pointless. Financial penalties applied to a company this size basically just get socialised. Either employees (generally innocent of this) lose their jobs as the company closes factories, or the price of future cars goes up, or even the company goes entirely bust in which case that doesn't actually help anyone at all.…

There will be a criminal case for fraud and a civil case for customer damages, at least that is how it works in the US. How many countries were defrauded and all their different laws will take quite a while to sort.