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When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

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Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#131
this guy needs to be careful.

1.) people reading this won't pay attention or understand the fine detail 2.) non-compete clauses etc. are there because learning on the job gives an advantage to starting up after leaving.

should have researched legal precedent and played it safe imo. waited two years and set up somewhere geographically remote from the original employer...

i hope this plays out well. as much as there was some naivete in this enterprise i don't think there was any ill intent, and this really is a bit of bullying... the only sad thing is that the bullying might be legally justifiable given the circumstances described.

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the whole leaving on good terms, really. But this whole "hey, we just want you to keep the code and answer questions for our other engineers" aspect really ought to have set off red flags. Pro-tip, hand write a nice letter to your boss/colleagues on your way out. Bingo, no burned bridges, and no risk of law suits for holding on to company IP.

Hand written with a pen? From the perspective of a millennial I am curious about if it is more polite to email or hand over a written letter.

Print out and hand it to them in person. Hand written in pen isn't needed but email is way too impersonal in my opinion.

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the whole leaving on good terms, really. But this whole "hey, we just want you to keep the code and answer questions for our other engineers" aspect really ought to have set off red flags. Pro-tip, hand write a nice letter to your boss/colleagues on your way out. Bingo, no burned bridges, and no risk of law suits for holding on to company IP.

Hand written with a pen? From the perspective of a millennial I am curious about if it is more polite to email or hand over a written letter.

I suspect this may significantly depend on the quality of your handwriting. I'm just old enough to believe that handwritten is more polite in theory, but in practice I'd probably send an email, or print out a typed letter and then initial it.

They can't tell if I was being nice if they can't read what I wrote, after all :)

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#134

My first instinct is to congratulate Shred for standing up to the big bully. That was really almost what I posted. But pick apart Shred's note, and really it's an emotional appeal based on two ideas: 1. That the sole test of stealing ideas is source code that has been copied verbatim. 2. That the only possible secrets of Smule are features implemented in released products. These are pretty weak legs to stand on. They…

lol @ preposterous. That's the law yo. Copyright - Source code that has been copied. Patent - Monopoly on an idea. Trade Secret Law - N/A. They are former employees. Non Compete Agreement - Agreements in restraint of competititon are void in California. Shred's story sounds credible to me. The fact that Smule offered to make this lawsuit go away in exchange for equity sounds a lot like extortion to me. Why would they…

Trade secrets are indeed protected under California law yo.

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/california-trade-secr...

- "California is unique in that its laws expressly establish that the employer owns trade secrets created by an employee (Cal. Labor Code Sec. 2860)."

- "Federal rules also apply in California. The Economic Espionage Act of 1996 makes the theft of trade secrets a federal crime."

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#135
This is an inherently tough situation for the founders but not unwinnable, provided:

1. The code is as they say it is, entirely independently developed as opposed to code that infringes the employer's copyright because it has been stolen.

2. No moonlighting took place. If it did, the IP is so related in its broad subject matter that, even under the liberal California law, it could be said that it involved a reasonably anticipated extension of the employer's existing products or IP development, in which case it would belong to the employer even if the employees developed it strictly on their own time and strictly using their own resources while employed.

3. The Shred products do not embody proprietary trade secret information belonging to the former employer. For the employer to have a legitimate claim on this prong, it would have to show that it had non-public information (e.g., special algorithms, techniques, etc.) that gave it a decided competitive advantage, that were not known to others in the field, and that were the subject of special efforts by the employer to keep them confidential. If an employee who is bound by a typical confidentiality agreement learns of such trade secret information or techniques only while employed, or even develops or discovers them while being paid by the employer, all such trade secrets belong exclusively to the employer, even if the employee is capable of walking away with the secrets "in his head" only. If, however, the techniques, insights, information, etc. that the employee later used to develop the new products following termination of employment consisted of things known or derivable by any person skilled in the field were derived exclusively using that person's general skills and expertise, and not from taking any employer's proprietary information, then the employer has no claim on any of this. In particular, if someone was already an expert in the field before beginning the employment, and applies what he knows for the benefit of his employer while employed, that employee continues to own what he came in with and can use it as he likes in any post-employment situation. He does not lose what is his just because he passes through a particular employment situation. So, summing up, if the post-employment products derive exclusively or primarily from a former employer's "secret sauce," the employer has a claim; if they derive only from the general skill and expertise of an employee, the employer has no claim.

4. Nothing in the new products infringes any patent belonging to the former employer.

5. No other acts of unfair competition took place that would have tainted the new venture (e.g., no raiding of other employees by soliciting them while employed, no post-employment violation of any express non-solicitation clause, no customer theft based on misappropriation of trade secret information and the like).

6. The founders have a practical way of dealing with the legal costs and the impact of the lawsuit cloud on their ability to develop as a company. If the case is a clean one from their perspective, this usually means the employer will not be able to get any type of preliminary injunction to stop the venture during the legal fight. In that case, if the new venture can generate revenue, this can help fund things or can possibly be sufficient to assuage concerns of investors so as to convince them it is worth their while to fund the venture in spite of the lawsuit. The dollars involved in such a defense are large for a small venture but can be managed in the right situations (likely in the hundreds of thousands, more if the employer is particularly obnoxious).

7. If the former employer is taking a reputational hit by pursuing the lawsuit, this works in favor of the founders as well because there is a real price to pay besides money for being a bully (if that is what is happening). After all, who wants to work for a horse's ass of an employer given a choice.

I don't know the facts here but there are several indicators that the Shred founders are being truthful in what they are saying. If this all followed from an initial rejection of the former employer's effort to own or control them, this likely indicates bad faith by the employer. The offer to have the code compared by a neutral is also important. It is true that stolen code by itself may not be the key thing but such an examination can bring to light many important things about whether a viable claim exists here or not. The employer's apparent refusal to allow this does not speak well of its motives. Even worse, if, as I understand it from public reports, the employer wants the code turned over to it in discovery, this is a very bad sign. Even if this is done under a so-called protective order, this sort of tactic is very often a tip-off that it is the employer and not the employees that is trying to engage in dirty tactics to gain a competitive advantage. Information is very amorphous and having the employer's developers scour the code directly is a sure way for them to grab key ideas/techniques that they normally would have no ability to access. Another tip-off is the employer's CEO being taped making statements that he intends to win whether the employer is in the right or not. By itself, perhaps an inconclusive statement but combined with the other factors, this does not look like good faith. Finally, YC is standing behind Shred. This, again, is only an indicator but YC has demonstrated itself to be nothing if not honorable in innumerable situations and it does not want the taint of being associated with a dirty company. Its support is thus a good indicator of what is going on here in reality.

Only time will tell who is right but, on the surface, this looks to me like a classic case of abusive litigation aimed at gaining something besides a just result on the merits.

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#136

My first instinct is to congratulate Shred for standing up to the big bully. That was really almost what I posted. But pick apart Shred's note, and really it's an emotional appeal based on two ideas: 1. That the sole test of stealing ideas is source code that has been copied verbatim. 2. That the only possible secrets of Smule are features implemented in released products. These are pretty weak legs to stand on. They…

Hi Paul thanks for your comments. In the code comparison, the 3rd party will also be able to look at methods (in addition to code copied directly). We're more than happy to include proprietary methods in the review. On stealing "ideas," do you have some advice here? Smule has never specified what ideas they think we stole. What do you think is our burden of responsibility in proving we did not steal ideas our opponen…

> On stealing "ideas," do you have some advice here?

IANAL, and esp. I am not from the US so I don't really have a good grasp of the spirit of the law there (except that from the outside it is constantly surprising and scary!)

however, here in the UK i have some experience, esp because i want to ship software which directly competes with my previous employers in the future...

one thing to remember is that working somewhere enables you to gain knowledge about their workings and that the employer allows this at the time for its own benefit and not for yours.

its very difficult to prove/disprove if this happened though, and the contract signed when working there might turn out to be critical. whilst non-compete clauses are frequently so poorly written that they can never be enforced, the precedent here (in the UK) is that if you want to be safe and be able to point at past cases in defense then you do not compete for two years, poach employees, nor compete on your former employer's doorstep geographically. afaik there have been zero successful claims by employers if these criteria have been met...

remember this can be anything, from having beers on friday, to using a particular software for time-keeping - all the way through the the source code that you are so willing to allow to be searched. if you want better luck with this approach of being open - open every thing up, not just the code, but the working practices, software used, internal hierarchy, which cleaning company you use... everything.

on the other hand i know plenty of companies started by (naive) people who left and started immediately with their buddies from an old job and directly competed with their former employer within a year, using knowledge and skills that they improved on the job. they meant no harm and felt that what they were doing was fair, but imo they took an incredible risk by not researching what has happened in the past with such cases, and are lucky to have gotten away with it.

i hope this goes well for you. be ready for the media and naive readers to not read the detail of what has been written, and instead to slam you for nicking code to start up a company.

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#137
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't get to walk out the door with the secret recipes. Indeed, but in general in the US you have to go to real efforts to create and keep secret such recipes. And I find it utterly amazing that California law, last time I checked, doesn't consider customer lists to be protectable trade secrets for salesmen (!!!).

This is SUPER wrong. Customer lists were one of the original trade secrets under common law, and they still are trade secrets--as long as they're kept secret. More modern applications: "Business Information Trade secrets in this category may include: ... Customer lists" http://www.fenwick.com/FenwickDocuments/Trade_Secrets_Protec... "California court affirms that customer lists can qualify as trade secrets" http://ww…

Note the words "can qualify" and "may include". It's not a matter of secret keeping. It is a fact-specific analysis turning on the nature of the product and the specific information on the list. Whether or not one could theoretically gather the information from public sources, sources outside the list, is also a factor. A simple list of buyers for a simple product may not qualify regardless of attempted protections. Not all lists are protected. Imho, given the various rules, I would say the default in California is still non-protection absent exceptional circumstances.

I totally dismiss the linked Fenwick PFD. According to my pdf reader that document was last updated on "Tue 05 Apr 2005 04:49:08 PM PDT". It's totally out of date and therefore untrustworthy as to specifics of current CA law. I'm a little shocked that it is still on their server.

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sandworm101: That's a really interesting comment. It sounds very anti free market to me, but I guess I'm not surprised. I guess the only recourse for a founder led company in that situation would be to leave the US. Not necessarily a great result. OT: Regarding the Coke/Pepsi thing, personally I think food manufacturers (I use the term loosely) should be forced to disclose what's in their products. Though I would str…

Leaving the US would do little beyond increasing the cost of litigation and making said founder look more like a fugitive. Tradesecret law and IP law generally is pretty universal. And you can still get sued where the alleged theft/taking/wrong took place. A default decision (ie you don't show up) by a US court will be enforced in Canada, Europe or most anywhere else. As for free markets, while IP law does create mon…

sandworm101: do you think those laws apply when someone reinvents something that was in their head, or only when documents were retained/copied/passed as in the Chung/Boeing case?

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#139
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is SUPER wrong. Customer lists were one of the original trade secrets under common law, and they still are trade secrets--as long as they're kept secret. More modern applications: "Business Information Trade secrets in this category may include: ... Customer lists" http://www.fenwick.com/FenwickDocuments/Trade_Secrets_Protec... "California court affirms that customer lists can qualify as trade secrets" http://ww…

The case you cited in your last link could have been decided after I read whatever it was I read. It could be that it's pretty hard to make and keep such lists as trade secrets, or maybe what I read referred to just a list of customers with all that other information, but I remember it being pretty definitive, and, generally agreeing with your initial points, startling.

The law of customer lists being trade secrets is literally centuries old.

Perhaps you're remembering a recent case about whether LinkedIn contacts could qualify as trade secrets, which tested where to draw the line:

http://blogs.orrick.com/trade-secrets-watch/2014/10/27/new-s...

Re: When Your Former Boss Sues You for Starting a Startup

#140
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The case you cited in your last link could have been decided after I read whatever it was I read. It could be that it's pretty hard to make and keep such lists as trade secrets, or maybe what I read referred to just a list of customers with all that other information, but I remember it being pretty definitive, and, generally agreeing with your initial points, startling.

The law of customer lists being trade secrets is literally centuries old. Perhaps you're remembering a recent case about whether LinkedIn contacts could qualify as trade secrets, which tested where to draw the line: http://blogs.orrick.com/trade-secrets-watch/2014/10/27/new-s...

No. The tradition is old. The law has been revisited and updates many hundreds of time.
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