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The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother

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Re: The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother

#71
post #69
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. The incident didn't take place in an airport but in an overland border crossing, which hasn't much to do with El Al's security system and thus the article. 2. The official claim was that the laptop was left unattended and mistaken for a suspect object (this is the Taba crossing which extremely sensitive these days). I can't say who's right, but I do know I've never heard of a passenger's laptop getting shot at bef…

Lets see if I got this straight: there is a comment in a thread regarding the "Israelification" of the United States of America (God help us all) and you think that the possibility of a "political" aspect to the OP's post belongs to "reddit"? There is clearly a very important political aspect to the changes forced on this nation by the governing class under the guise of "security" and frankly for those of us who came…

This thread isn't about the "Israelification" of the US, it's about adapting El Al's security procedures to US airlines. What are you even on about?

Re: The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother

#72
post #55

The problem with the Israelification goal is that while Israel's airport security method is second to none, it is not scalable, and therefore not applicable to the US (or many other countries), at least not without major restructuring. The problem of scale is manifested twice: 1. Manpower - Israel has a huge pool of very talented young men and women who already received very good training in the army and the security…

Hi, I'm an Israeli who is at least passably familiar with how the security apparatus works here. A few comments on your comments: 1. Scale Scale is an issue, but nobody in the thread has touched on why. The Israeli security model is (as noted in the article) more about the passenger than their baggage. This approach is both effective, time-consuming, and "racist": the profilers have a conversation with each passenger…

"PSA"? Google suggest didn't have anything for "p security administration"

great comments btw, both your's and parent's (I have to post this b/c my upvotes aren't being counted).

Re: The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother

#73
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

while Israel's airport security method is second to none, it is not scalable, and therefore not applicable to the US (or many other countries), at least not without major restructuring. The restructuring in the article didn't sound massive. The Israeli methods focus on identifying terrorists by their behavior rather than their methods (box cutters, PETN, etc). The biggest cost thus seems to be training staff to ident…

El Al Spends $100M securing 37 Aircraft. Scale that to the 8,225 Aircraft ( http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_stat... ) and you'd need a budget of $20 Billion+ without even taking into account that you have a heterogeneous population that doesn't lend itself to easy profiling (unlike israel). The major vulnerability of the El Al security system is that anybody that isn't considered part of the "…

El Al Spends $100M securing 37 Aircraft

That assumes costs scale linearly with aircraft. Do they?

The major vulnerability of the El Al security system is that anybody that isn't considered part of the "Risk Profile" (I.E. Muslim) - can walk right through the security system.

I doubt this. Muslims are probably subject to higher scrutiny, but that doesn't preclude others from being subject to the same, Jews included.

How many aircraft per day, or per month, heck _per year_ are being blown out of the American Aviation sky under the current regime?

None. 2 attempts (shoe and underwear bomber). Both aborted not b/c of TSA methods, but because passengers took the initiative. If current methods were working, neither bomber would've been able to bring fire onto the plane.

Let me ask you - how many person-hours and dollars have been wasted due to unnecessary delays and tossed liquids.

"Relying on passengers to fix flaws" - Nobody is allowed to bring on guns, knives, or even large amounts of volatile liquids

If you want to bring on large amounts of volatile liquids, put them in a contact lens bottle. You're allowed to carry one on that's larger than 3oz (http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/specialneeds/editoria...). Mine is a 16oz bottle, which I've brought on all the time. It has obviously always been contact lens solution, but it's never been verified other than by visually inspecting the label.

The system is designed to allow passengers to subdue any hostilities on the plane. I think that's an excellent part of the current system.

Nobody "designed" this. That's an artifact of how planes were used in 9/11. Prior to that, pax sat quietly in hopes that hijackers wouldn't blow up their plane. This is the last line of defense that works in spite of failures that allowed PETN and matches onto planes.

So, every single person was having their luggage checked AND being patted down - the net result of this "Chaos" - my normally 20 minute wait took 90 minutes.

I'd say a 450% increase in wait times is significant. But it sounds like you were one of the lucky ones: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2009/12/27/tor-airpor...

Seems like giving every pax significant attention (pat downs or interviews) may actually be scalable. I'm happy to wait 90m to get on a flight and feel like it's safe.

But, the most important element to be aware of - the Israel Security systems works based on Racial Profiling - it's that simple. The United States has decided they don't want to go down that path, so, even if the El Al system would scale from 37 to 8,000+ Aircraft, it's not politically tenable.

Even if the racial profiling bit is true - and based on personal experience as well as anecdotes from non-muslim HN posters and friends I'm not sure it is - I'm less interested in what's politically tenable than what's best. Over time, politicians have a way of supporting the right course of action.

Re: The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother

#74
High security, little bother, totally worthless. Pick another country that doesn't have the services or pick a different target that is as spectacular and your security becomes worthless. Put in place a consistent security system that is consistent with the threat.

Re: The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother

#75
post #72
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, I'm an Israeli who is at least passably familiar with how the security apparatus works here. A few comments on your comments: 1. Scale Scale is an issue, but nobody in the thread has touched on why. The Israeli security model is (as noted in the article) more about the passenger than their baggage. This approach is both effective, time-consuming, and "racist": the profilers have a conversation with each passenger…

"PSA"? Google suggest didn't have anything for "p security administration" great comments btw, both your's and parent's (I have to post this b/c my upvotes aren't being counted).

Public Service Announcement?

Re: The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother

#76
post #69
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. The incident didn't take place in an airport but in an overland border crossing, which hasn't much to do with El Al's security system and thus the article. 2. The official claim was that the laptop was left unattended and mistaken for a suspect object (this is the Taba crossing which extremely sensitive these days). I can't say who's right, but I do know I've never heard of a passenger's laptop getting shot at bef…

Lets see if I got this straight: there is a comment in a thread regarding the "Israelification" of the United States of America (God help us all) and you think that the possibility of a "political" aspect to the OP's post belongs to "reddit"? There is clearly a very important political aspect to the changes forced on this nation by the governing class under the guise of "security" and frankly for those of us who came…

[deleted]

Re: The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother

#77
Yes, let's embrace the idea: adopting the stance of a country at constant war since its beginnings, a focal point of worldwide disagreement. A country which (from any perspective) seems nowhere near achieving stability or peace. Not such a great model, on second thought?

Or, maybe we should go further at "Israeli-fying" our borders: more walls and more military machines. Perhaps 'settlements' (er, um, neighborhoods) just inside Mexico's and Canada's borders...!?

This statement is what is so alarming to me: "Do you know why Israelis are so calm? We have brutal terror attacks on our civilians and still, life in Israel is pretty good. The reason is that people trust their defence forces, their police, their response teams and the security agencies. They know they're doing a good job.

Do we have such sweeping trust of our gov't/authority figures? Should we? Should anyone? If this is "Israeli-fication" of thought, then please count me out. Israel is a model of a worst-case security scenario (way of life) -- it's not an ideal.

Re: The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother

#78
Here's a question: how many terrorism attempts have there been against US airlines since 9/11? For that matter, what is the total number of US flights that have EVER been attacked by terrorists? I'm including both successful attacks and ones where the attack was foiled.

This is a serious question--perhaps this is a much bigger threat than I'm aware. But according to my risk assessment, airline terrorism is such a low-order threat that it's just not worth getting exercised about. I agree that the TSA accomplishes little or nothing, but I feel perfectly safe--the odds that I will be on a plane that is attacked by a hijacker are almost infinitesimal.

Re: The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother

#79
post #78

Here's a question: how many terrorism attempts have there been against US airlines since 9/11? For that matter, what is the total number of US flights that have EVER been attacked by terrorists? I'm including both successful attacks and ones where the attack was foiled. This is a serious question--perhaps this is a much bigger threat than I'm aware. But according to my risk assessment, airline terrorism is such a low…

I agree. There is absolutely no security on buses in the US, and there are virtually no attacks/hijackings.

However, hijacking a plane: (1) requires very few terrorists, (2) can destroy major landmarks, and (3) has a huge impact on the nation.

If hijacking is nontrivial, terrorists will clearly just do it over and over again. The cost to prevent it is high, but the US has little choice unless it wants to appear weak ...

Re: The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother

#80
post #77

Yes, let's embrace the idea: adopting the stance of a country at constant war since its beginnings, a focal point of worldwide disagreement. A country which (from any perspective) seems nowhere near achieving stability or peace. Not such a great model, on second thought? Or, maybe we should go further at "Israeli-fying" our borders: more walls and more military machines. Perhaps 'settlements' (er, um, neighborhoods)…

I believe this is a DH1 argument. You are not refuting or event attempting to refute the main point at all.
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