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The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother

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Re: The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother

#61

Post by julius_geezer »

pyre wrote: post #31
neurotech1 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think america has a shortage of "trained" security people, there is a fairly large pool of former enlisted military personnel who can be transitioned into airport security. From what I understand, the criminal/terrorist probably would draw suspicion even if approached by relatively untrained airport staff "greeter", and draw further attention to themselves. Remember that the Abdulmutallab came from Yemen, Pai…

> there is a fairly large pool of former enlisted military personnel who can be transitioned into airport security. The problem here could be that -- at least in the US -- a lot of military personnel come out of the military with some sort of chip on their shoulder towards the rest of society. Though I could just be exaggerating the issue. If the new security personnel act like 'bullies with a badge' rather than trai…

I don't think the chip on the shoulder exists to the extent that it may once have, partly because those with reservations about US foreign policy have discovered that it is counterproductive to take it out on PFCs. There are undoubtedly a bunch of folks out there with PTSD, and reflexes learned in Baghdad may be honed a little keen for Kansas City.

Re: The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother

#62

Post by kareemm »

jonknee wrote: post #54
kareemm wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you even read the original article? It's a goal to move passengers from parking lot to gate in 25 minutes. Half-hour interviews aren't a part of the process.

Perhaps if you're a local it's quick. But they also recommended to show up three hours early for a reason... Long interrogations are quite common. If you fit a profile they will drill you like you have Osama on speed dial. This was a puff piece for how awesome El Al is, but the reality is their method only works because of the small number of passengers (and their willingness to accept racism). http://www.elal.co.il/…

But they also recommended to show up three hours early for a reason.

US check-in times for int'l flights are 2h. I'd rather show up 3h early and feel safe than 2h and feel like security is a joke.

If you fit a profile they will drill you like you have Osama on speed dial. This was a puff piece for how awesome El Al is, but the reality is their method only works because of the small number of passengers (and their willingness to accept racism).

First, nobody is free of racial bias. This bias will leak into the decisions we all make, everyday. Take this test and let me know how it turns out: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/Launch?study=/user/edu....

That said, the Israelis use behavioral profiling, not racial profiling. There's no need to dismiss a security system that the US can learn from and improve by dropping the "R" bomb.

Re: The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother

#63

Post by intellectronica »

idan wrote: post #55
intellectronica wrote: post #11

The problem with the Israelification goal is that while Israel's airport security method is second to none, it is not scalable, and therefore not applicable to the US (or many other countries), at least not without major restructuring. The problem of scale is manifested twice: 1. Manpower - Israel has a huge pool of very talented young men and women who already received very good training in the army and the security…

Hi, I'm an Israeli who is at least passably familiar with how the security apparatus works here. A few comments on your comments: 1. Scale Scale is an issue, but nobody in the thread has touched on why. The Israeli security model is (as noted in the article) more about the passenger than their baggage. This approach is both effective, time-consuming, and "racist": the profilers have a conversation with each passenger…

> In the US, "subjective" is merely a synonym for "pending lawsuit".

What a quote, Chapeaux!

Re: The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother

#64

Post by nir »

jonknee wrote: post #54
kareemm wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you even read the original article? It's a goal to move passengers from parking lot to gate in 25 minutes. Half-hour interviews aren't a part of the process.

Perhaps if you're a local it's quick. But they also recommended to show up three hours early for a reason... Long interrogations are quite common. If you fit a profile they will drill you like you have Osama on speed dial. This was a puff piece for how awesome El Al is, but the reality is their method only works because of the small number of passengers (and their willingness to accept racism). http://www.elal.co.il/…

You're right it's a puff peace (the guy interviewed sells security services..) and that some passengers get grilled, but wrong about the race angle: People I know that got the longer question & search treatment include a French Indian woman, a Korean guy and an Irish American from San Francisco. The only thing they all had in common a certain profile - in their 20s, traveling alone, little luggage, staying for a short period.

I got profiled a few times in other airports - a random search in Pittsburgh, a less random one at Auckland, NZ, a few more I'm probably forgetting - all in all, I prefer that to the process that subjects everyone to a full on search as they do in FRA and sometimes in LHR and US airports. That said, I suppose if I was consistently getting profiled I'd probably be less game.

As for "3 hours early", you'll find almost every airline has this in their website, to cover themselves. Except for very infrequent fliers, no one really shows up 3 hours early. It's a small airport and usually pretty quick to get through.

Re: The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother

#65

Post by electromagnetic »

julius_geezer wrote: post #61
pyre wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is a fairly large pool of former enlisted military personnel who can be transitioned into airport security. The problem here could be that -- at least in the US -- a lot of military personnel come out of the military with some sort of chip on their shoulder towards the rest of society. Though I could just be exaggerating the issue. If the new security personnel act like 'bullies with a badge' rather than trai…

I don't think the chip on the shoulder exists to the extent that it may once have, partly because those with reservations about US foreign policy have discovered that it is counterproductive to take it out on PFCs. There are undoubtedly a bunch of folks out there with PTSD, and reflexes learned in Baghdad may be honed a little keen for Kansas City.

It must be noted that not all soldiers are in Iraq or Afghanistan, the majority are still based in 'peaceful' areas. Perhaps the soldiers from Baghdad might be tightly wound for airport security, but there's still a large pool of highly trained soldiers who have never stepped into an active war zone.

However, from what I was aware the FBI, CIA and several federal agencies in the US tend to get 'first pick' when it came to the ex-military talent. So I wouldn't know if this pool of soldiers is already being tapped to the max.

Re: The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother

#66

Post by ghshephard »

kareemm wrote: post #42
intellectronica wrote: post #11

The problem with the Israelification goal is that while Israel's airport security method is second to none, it is not scalable, and therefore not applicable to the US (or many other countries), at least not without major restructuring. The problem of scale is manifested twice: 1. Manpower - Israel has a huge pool of very talented young men and women who already received very good training in the army and the security…

while Israel's airport security method is second to none, it is not scalable, and therefore not applicable to the US (or many other countries), at least not without major restructuring. The restructuring in the article didn't sound massive. The Israeli methods focus on identifying terrorists by their behavior rather than their methods (box cutters, PETN, etc). The biggest cost thus seems to be training staff to ident…

El Al Spends $100M securing 37 Aircraft. Scale that to the 8,225 Aircraft (http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_stat...) and you'd need a budget of $20 Billion+ without even taking into account that you have a heterogeneous population that doesn't lend itself to easy profiling (unlike israel).

The major vulnerability of the El Al security system is that anybody that isn't considered part of the "Risk Profile" (I.E. Muslim) - can walk right through the security system. The day a Jewish Terrorist decides to bomb El Al, is the end of the "Interview" system, and the adoption of shoe screening, liquid screening and full body scans.

To some degree it's easier just to selectively screen everyone and not even bother with the interview. Just pretend everyone fails it and eliminate that entire step.

And, I'll take exception to your statement "Current Methods Aren't working" - How many aircraft per day, or per month, heck _per year_ are being blown out of the American Aviation sky under the current regime?

Regarding security theater - Seems to be working for me.

"Relying on passengers to fix flaws" - Nobody is allowed to bring on guns, knives, or even large amounts of volatile liquids - the system is designed to allow passengers to subdue any hostiles on the plane. I think that's an excellent part of the current system.

"Airport Chaos" - I flew two days after the bombing incident out of YVR to SFO, before _anyone_ really knew what was about to happen next, after most of the restrictions had been put in place, but BEFORE Canada banned (most) Carry On Luggage for US bound flights. So, every single person was having their luggage checked AND being patted down - the net result of this "Chaos" - my normally 20 minute wait took 90 minutes.

But, the most important element to be aware of - the Israel Security systems works based on Racial Profiling - it's that simple. The United States has decided they don't want to go down that path, so, even if the El Al system would scale from 37 to 8,000+ Aircraft, it's not politically tenable.

Re: The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother

#67

Post by dalke »

kareemm wrote: post #42
intellectronica wrote: post #11

The problem with the Israelification goal is that while Israel's airport security method is second to none, it is not scalable, and therefore not applicable to the US (or many other countries), at least not without major restructuring. The problem of scale is manifested twice: 1. Manpower - Israel has a huge pool of very talented young men and women who already received very good training in the army and the security…

while Israel's airport security method is second to none, it is not scalable, and therefore not applicable to the US (or many other countries), at least not without major restructuring. The restructuring in the article didn't sound massive. The Israeli methods focus on identifying terrorists by their behavior rather than their methods (box cutters, PETN, etc). The biggest cost thus seems to be training staff to ident…

"I don't see why at least these precautions wouldn't be scalable"

I believe those policies were in place at Amsterdam airport already for US flights. At least, I have memories of being asked behavioral questions at the gate and of another screening of my carry-on luggage and walking through the metal detector. I can't say anything about the process in place last week.

If it was in place, and still didn't work, then what?

Re: The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother

#68

Post by Eliezer »

intellectronica wrote: post #26
Eliezer wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whaa? R&D on techinques and machinery should have economy of scale, not diseconomy of scale. And the Israelis would be happy to tell us how to do it.

If techniques and machinery alone were enough the TSA wouldn't have had any problem. Israel relies on information, design and training specific to Ben-Gurion airport and would have to repeat some of these steps if it ever needed to cover another one.

The TSA is run by idiots who didn't ask Israel in the first place.

Re: The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother

#69

Post by lucifer »

nir wrote: post #58
djcapelis wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a relevant comment, why is it downmodded? Clearly if Israeli security forces are putting bullet holes through laptops as part of standard procedure, that's not exactly the hassle-free friendly security process the article implies.

1. The incident didn't take place in an airport but in an overland border crossing, which hasn't much to do with El Al's security system and thus the article. 2. The official claim was that the laptop was left unattended and mistaken for a suspect object (this is the Taba crossing which extremely sensitive these days). I can't say who's right, but I do know I've never heard of a passenger's laptop getting shot at bef…

Lets see if I got this straight: there is a comment in a thread regarding the "Israelification" of the United States of America (God help us all) and you think that the possibility of a "political" aspect to the OP's post belongs to "reddit"?

There is clearly a very important political aspect to the changes forced on this nation by the governing class under the guise of "security" and frankly for those of us who came to United States precisely because of the fact that its foundational and historic political basis and ideals was unlike any other country (which is why even to this day people flock to United States and not Israel) do have legitimate "political" concerns regarding the direction this country has taken. (And I can only hope that the native citizens share this concern.)

So, the OP's post is quite on track and appropriate as a timely 'fyi' for any US citizen who is reading this thread as to the possible end-state socio-political regime that the "Isrealification" avenue will culminate.

Re: The 'Israelification' of airports: High security, little bother

#70

Post by philwelch »

electromagnetic wrote: post #65
julius_geezer wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the chip on the shoulder exists to the extent that it may once have, partly because those with reservations about US foreign policy have discovered that it is counterproductive to take it out on PFCs. There are undoubtedly a bunch of folks out there with PTSD, and reflexes learned in Baghdad may be honed a little keen for Kansas City.

It must be noted that not all soldiers are in Iraq or Afghanistan, the majority are still based in 'peaceful' areas. Perhaps the soldiers from Baghdad might be tightly wound for airport security, but there's still a large pool of highly trained soldiers who have never stepped into an active war zone. However, from what I was aware the FBI, CIA and several federal agencies in the US tend to get 'first pick' when it ca…

"Ex-"? If the CIA or FBI want someone who's even presently serving, they can get them. Of course, that happens most frequently when your life story begins with something like "born to Christian missionaries living in China".
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