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Just doesn’t feel good

marco.org

251–260 of 315 posts

Re: Just doesn’t feel good

#251
post #20

Lots of people here trying to infer motives. Why not just believe what he says? He's a guy who has enough money, wants to do what he loves, and doesn't enjoy controversy. He's hacker enough to want to muck about with how to make a blocker, but it's not his joy. Basically, he's what many of us aspire to be.

I don't want to infer motives because I don't know. I will say that I am among those who doesn't really believe this is simply a morality tale. There are several folks here, like yourself, who are basically saying, "yeah, I can understand the mentality of not wanting to do and ad-blocker because of the moral grey area" I can understand that as well. What I can't understand is the quite sudden change of heart 2 days a…

The internet has changed the concept of "fame".

In the past, being famous usually required a lot of effort and (usually) money. Many people that could have been famous but didn't spend the time/money to make it happen were often discovered by the larger public only after their death. The end game of this property are things like the modern manufactured artist, where fame is achieved because that was the business plan.

An important consequence of this "traditional" type of fame is that someone who wants to leave and get their old life back can generally stop participating. Without the time/money investment the public moves on. "Traditional" fame is a job you can walk away from.

This changed with the internet, where people can become famous by accident. A tweet or blog post can suddenly get millions of views, or something you made can suddenly become the thing that everybody is trying to get a copy of. It's obvious that this is a well-known concept because we have entire industries working to try to make their product "go viral".

This "unexpected" type of fame has a serious problem: it's permanent. It is hard or impossible to simply "walk away' from something when that would mean walking away from your normal life.

When the tsunami of unexpected fame suddenly happens to someone, it is perfectly rational for someone to try to escape the situation before it becomes permanent. The only problem is it may be too late. Also, we're not helping: the fact that this thread on HN even exists is only making this product (and the drama surrounding it) even more famous.

For a better discussion of this problem, I highly recommend watching "This is Phil Fish" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmTUW-owa2w ).

edit: I should add a very mild language warning with that video. (a few quoted f-bombs that are understandable in context)

Re: Just doesn’t feel good

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2 days is a short period of time, but the context over those days is massively different. On Sept 16th, a few dozen beta testers may have been using Peace and giving Marco feedback. On Sept 18, Peace is the top ranked app in the app store, displacing MineCraft. MineCraft! Estimates are in the 12000-15000 downloads on the first day[1]. You look in your iTunes connect account and realize you on the path to make $100K o…

> realize you on the path to make $100K on an app that, rightly or wrongly, could impact other people's livelihoods Because someone giving me 100k for an app which wrote, to use it for the exact purpose I made it for is certainly /the/ reason I would change my mind about making it... > and subject me to a torrent of unpleasantness. But that’ll end soon enough, and that’s better than how I’d feel if I kept going. What…

>to use it for the exact purpose I made it

Except its not the exact purpose he made it. The author believes in tasteful ads - Peace blocks everything.

Re: Just doesn’t feel good

#253

There's no need to make up dark motives on Marco's side, his blogpost on blocking The Deck ( http://www.marco.org/2015/09/17/why-peace-blocks-deck-ads ) pretty clearly showed where the cracks were. A lot of people and business will get hurt in this, plenty of them not at fault or at least with no better way to monetize. Now to be clear, I use ad blockers on the web myself, and intend to install the Android ones once…

>> Will Gruber still be so supportive of content blockers then? And where's the line? Who decides what the right types of ads are?

From your linked article, it appears that Gruber's already not supportive of content blockers that block the Deck by default:

"I think if your Safari Content Blocker blocks The Deck by default, it’s wrong. I dare you to defend it." https://twitter.com/gruber/status/644409410048106496

I get that there are bad ads and good ads, but in the grand scheme of things, they're all still ads. Do people who skip through commercials on a PVR'ed TV show care if one or two of the ads are worth watching? I'd argue that in most cases, the answer is "no". So this all reminds me of the famous line from Animal Farm - "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others".

Re: Just doesn’t feel good

#254
When I visit a site, I want to see content from that site. I did not consent to view ads from a third party. I would be happy to view ads that a site decides to host and display. The problem is that most sites have absolutely no idea what ads they are displaying. They just want money. It is probably not even feasible to block ads that a site hosts themselves.

Re: Just doesn’t feel good

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does he continue to recommend people use Ghostery and block ads on the desktop though? Blocking ads on mobile is bad, but blocking them on desktop is ok--huh?

He's pulling the app because he doesn't want to be the arbiter of what's acceptable advertising and what's not, not because he thinks ad blocking is bad in and of itself.

And now Arment has killed the messenger but still spreads the message.

Re: Just doesn’t feel good

#256
post #218

I don't get it. What was this Peace app? How did it get to the top of the charts right away upon release? How is an App Store app able to block ads in other apps? These are all questions I wish marco would have answered for the developers reading his piece.

http://www.marco.org/2015/09/16/peace-content-blocker

It's an ad blocking app. ad blocking is a new feature for iOS 9

Re: Just doesn’t feel good

#257

There's no need to make up dark motives on Marco's side, his blogpost on blocking The Deck ( http://www.marco.org/2015/09/17/why-peace-blocks-deck-ads ) pretty clearly showed where the cracks were. A lot of people and business will get hurt in this, plenty of them not at fault or at least with no better way to monetize. Now to be clear, I use ad blockers on the web myself, and intend to install the Android ones once…

The thing with Gruber's approach is that it's not just native advertising, it's good advertising. They're actually things I want to see. An extension that blocked his ads would make things worse for me, not on some fluffy moral grounds, but on the concrete grounds that I want to see them.

If advertisements are always a chore that people don't want to see but have to put up with, then you're always going to have an arms race between advertisers and users. But if you can make advertisements something people actually want to see, then you won't have to worry about people blocking them.

This sounds pretty hard, and maybe it's totally impractical. On the other hand, there are forms of advertisement (like movie trailers) which are almost universally appreciated.

Re: Just doesn’t feel good

#258
post #36
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really disappointing that all those the-sky-is-falling articles from tech journalists have apparently caused this. Nothing has changed, no new issues were raised. Marco has talked about and basically supported ad blocking in the past. I guess he just doesn't feel like being the focus of their ire right now.

That's not true. Normal people as a general rule don't install much software on their computers, and they install even fewer browser extensions (now that it's harder to trick them into doing that). But people do install apps; they're crazy about apps. There are popular, good publications on the Internet that get 80+% of their revenue from ads, and those publications have a huge iOS readership, and those iOS users ten…

What's not true? Marco has explicitly written about iOS content blockers in the past few months. Nothing has changed since then.

It's a $3 app that requires configuration. It's not Angry Birds.

Also, I'm seeing a lot of claims with zero stats to back them up. The iOS top charts are extremely volatile. A few thousand nerds installing ad blockers will impact tech publications to some extent, but I'm extremely skeptical that it's the end of the world even for them. It should mean almost nothing for other sites with broader audiences.

Re: Just doesn’t feel good

#259
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dunno, marco just seems like an entitled jerk who's constructed a maze of rationalization around ad blocking. If you don't like the ads a website shows, well, you should have found that out of the first visit. Great. Then don't visit again. Here's his rationalization: Publishers won’t solve this problem: they cannot consistently enforce standards of decency and security on the ad networks that they embed in their sit…

He's an entitled jerk because he released a piece of software and then decided to refund his users and take it down?

what part of his "maze of rationalization around ad blocking" has he rescinded? None.

   I still believe that ad blockers are necessary today, and I still think 
   Ghostery is the best one, but I’ve learned over the last few crazy days that 
   I don’t feel good making one and being the arbiter of what’s blocked. [1]
He doesn't want to be the author of the ad-blocking software, but he continues to use it. :rolleyes: He wants to dodge personal responsibility while continuing to engage in and advocate for the behavior he's now acknowledged is harmful. ie he's an entitled jerk.

Note ad blocking also disabled ads on marco.org and daringfireball.net, though; I'm sure that was unrelated to his decision.

ps -- he hasn't refunded his users. He's indicated how they can get a refund which isn't the same thing at all. Sincere regret might be easier to believe if he got rid of the tens of thousands of dollars he earned from this.

[1] http://www.marco.org/2015/09/18/just-doesnt-feel-good

Re: Just doesn’t feel good

#260
post #206
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think ArsTechnica is also an example of where publishing needs to go because they don't show ads to subscribers. That's a great balance for casual and regular readers: if you visit enough to find it reasonable to pay you get faster page loads, less distraction, etc. and they get far more money from a subscription than a single user's ad revenue would have generated. It'd be really interesting to see if someone, may…

> I think ArsTechnica is also an example of where publishing needs to go because they don't show ads to subscribers. I think subscriptions are the way to go, but these sites really need to work on their pricing. Ars wants $5 a month for a few articles of text a day; whereas Netflix gives me millions of hours of movies for $8 a month. Frankly, I can't even imagine how Netflix pays for the bandwidth , let alone all the…

Except its entirely unclear that $5/month is sustainable, much less $1/mo.

Consider that the stodgy "print media" like the New York Times had a customer base of 800,000 that were sold for $700/year (that included ads in them!) - thats half a billion dollars a year, Ars would need 100% american penetration to get that on $1/mo.

Now obviously the cost side is changing for print, but the same is true for Netflix. I think Netflix prices are currently deeply discounted by the fact that (1) Studios are realizing they can make some money having it on Netflix rather than the Pirate Bay and (2) Home Video and Syndication prices still pay well enough that studios aren't majorly concerned. I interested to see if Netflix can even think about raising their prices while more and more studios pull their content off Netflix and Netflix has to continue relying on in house programming.

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