Live data from Hacker News

The ‘effective altruists’

lrb.co.uk

71–80 of 96 posts

Re: The ‘effective altruists’

#71
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whatever the reasoning behind your actions is, you are going to choose a single action (at each step) -- this forces you to choose the best. This works at the level of individual choice, but it doesn't add up over multiple individuals, because you can't compare different people's utilities on the same scale. But the key claims of utilitarianism under discussion (the ones that are supposed to motivate people to dona…

I agree that you can't necessarily add up utilities over multiple individuals, but you can naturally claim that a "good" individual utility takes into account the well being of others, and if the utility of each action is unique you may say there's a composing function g such that your utility u(a=action,t1=actor 1) is also a function of the utility for other people u(a,t1)=f(a,g(u(a,t2),...,u(a,tN))). I also think u…

> you can naturally claim that a "good" individual utility takes into account the well being of others

That's not the same as utilities of multiple individuals adding, or otherwise being composed into a single utility function. The "good" individual's utility function can certainly depend on that individual's beliefs about how his actions will affect the well-being of others; but it can't depend on the actual utility of those others, because the "good" individual doesn't know the actual utility to others of various states of the world.

> if those actors are able to 1) achieve consensus on a utility 2) coordinate their actions according to said utility, then it also makes sense to talk in terms of a joint utility theory.

I agree with this, but I think the necessary conditions for it are very rare. In most cases of collective action, the actors do not have consensus on a utility function and do not coordinate their actions according to a single utility function.

In fact, in most cases the actors probably do not even share a common or compatible set of beliefs about factual things. In US politics, for example, you have members of Congress who are young earth creationists alongside other members who believe standard evolutionary theory.

Re: The ‘effective altruists’

#72
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The objectives of "your genes" do not have to be your objectives. So you can be rational, but have different goals from what you were "meant" to (for some value of the word "meant").

Well perhaps that is true but then you will experience a lot more mental incongruity. For example, gay and transgendered people have much higher suicide attempt rates. The more you deviate from traditional family values, the unhappier you will likely feel. There is a big correlation I bet.

I don't think what you're saying is true re: mental incongruity.

And I don't think your example of gay suicides proves it, as it's hard to know what is the cause (and many people will point out, and I would agree, that there are many other causes of gay suicides, e.g. that our culture is oppressive toward gay people).

Re: The ‘effective altruists’

#73
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that being an effective altruist actually makes you less rational. As part of your genetic fitness, your brain is optimized for survival, reproduction, and keeping your children alive. If you're in the middle class and you give your money away then it goes against those objectives.

The objectives of "your genes" do not have to be your objectives. So you can be rational, but have different goals from what you were "meant" to (for some value of the word "meant").

To put in in other words, whatever your (gene-induced) instincts may urge you to do may not be the best strategy to successfully reproduce. Humans are a culture-based species. Helping your culture may be reciprocated by increased chance of your progeny surviving and prospering.

Also, cultures (at least microbial ones) with a certain percent of altruists grow faster than cultures without them, even though altruists' genes become less represented: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/323/5911/272.abstract

Re: The ‘effective altruists’

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genes are just part of the picture. Culture is as important - cultures evolve and are selected for fitness in almost the same way as genetics. This is a mammal thing, especially vivid in humans. In fact, culture has been shaping genes far more than genes, culture. In the last 50,000 years Homo Sapiens genetic adaptation has increased manyfold, likely in response to environmental changes brought on by culture (agraria…

This should go without saying but if you go against your culture, your chances of finding a life partner and having children are less likely. So genetically you are tailored to "fit in".

You're also genetically tailored to have lots of sex, theoretically in order to reproduce, but that doesn't prevent people from using birth control. You're genetically programmed to eat lots of fat, theoretically because it would better for you, although these days with easy abundance of foo it's much less heathy.

Worth mentioning that you might be genetically predisposed to do something to achieve some end goal, but that doesn't mean you have to agree with or actually try to achieve that end goal.

Re: The ‘effective altruists’

#76
post #27

Peter Singer's work has influenced my life in a big way. I have taken the 10% income to charity pledge and am on track this year to hit it(I calculate it every week as my income may begin varying weekly). My charity of choice is Schistomiasis Initiative, which I donate to through GiveWell. The Life You Can Save has a satisfying "Impact Calculator" that can help you visualize what good your money is capable of doing h…

The question of utilitarianism rests on the opprotunity cost of doing one thing versus another. Sure, some costs are relatively easy to estimate - vegging out on your couch for days watching TV will not likely lead to a lot of good for others (except possibly if you are actively doing research). But since even great investment firms don't always know which entrepreneurs to back, how are you supposed to know whether your current entrepreneurial efforts won't pay off more by reinvesting what you earned into building your business?

Perhaps at the other end, the focus on individual contribution is arbitrary as well. This is also a focus of libertarians who are methodological individualists - who say only individuals act, not orgabizations, and eg paying taxes to have a government agency pay for schooling is always less efficient than a charity that funds private school admission for poor students. But who says? That's quite an extreme position.

Who says YOU can do the most good? Perhaps if they hired someone else to make the money they'd make more and donate more correctly. Maybe you're better off getting out of the way.

Who knows maybe your company when led by someone else can do even more good? Maybe you should step aside after you've built it?

Perhaps giving your time and money to educate a kid or invest in someone else's work will go further because they'll earn more money?

Perhaps robots can do a better job than you.

With more and more technology and automation, it really does seem like there are diminishing returns from a growing class of people, and demand for their labor is falling. Perhaps the best thing people around the world can do is use condoms and prevent overpopulation in their respective areas.

From a purely utilitarian calculus, is it better to have as many kids as you can if you can maximie the QUAYs? What if you could have less kids but they'd all have a higher quality of life? Isn't that better than having a society crammed with poor kids, who as the article points out are nearly as happy as the rich? Is it really additive? Or are we risking an ecosystem crash that can suddenly lead to greater misery?

In short, we don't really have all the answers. I'd advise erring on the side of admitting we don't know what we could so to an ecosystem and not try to rape externalities to satisfy unchecked population growth and growing demand. Ecosystem collapse may be the thing that crashes your QUAYs down, and even if after the whole mess your sum was still higher due to sheer population numbers, I question the additivity.

Finally the problems come down to this: what is the definition of SHOULD?

I believe there is a hidden premise that many people omit when they say should. It is a ternary relation:

A should do B if A wants C to happen

Without individual goals, there is no should. As for the responsibility of the individual, here is my simple answer and the motto of our company:

People live lives. Companies create products.

Yes it is a bit ordinary and not as catchy sounding as "don't be evil". But it at every point make it clear who has responsibility to do what. When you are working for a project, you create a repeatable product and drive down costs through maximizing re-use. When you are off the clock, you live your life and honor your relationship, which are deeper than just "I don't know you from a hole in the wall." In the marketplace, there are less promises and moral obligations than in an intimate relationship, where shared goals are formed.

Remember - poverty is already going down around the world. The biggest issue we can face today is an ecological disaster caused either by us or an outside factor. Given the history of life on Earth, we can say that the probability of an outside event exceeding what we've seen in the last 10,000 is slim. However, our own population growth in the last 200 years is staggering and unprecedented! We should worry about collapse of various ecosystems that we put pressure on.

At the very least, these utilitarians should read about the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_argument and stop focusing on mere additivity of QUAYs. Perhaps the best thing they can do is hand out free condoms to everyone on the planet.

Re: The ‘effective altruists’

#77
post #27

Peter Singer's work has influenced my life in a big way. I have taken the 10% income to charity pledge and am on track this year to hit it(I calculate it every week as my income may begin varying weekly). My charity of choice is Schistomiasis Initiative, which I donate to through GiveWell. The Life You Can Save has a satisfying "Impact Calculator" that can help you visualize what good your money is capable of doing h…

> I urge everyone here to really consider taking the pledge and begin diverting at least some of their income to effective charities. I wasn't aware of Peter Singer etc., but I was actually independently considering doing the same thing (also 10%). But to be honest, I still fight with my worries - I am not sure about the local culture (Czech Republic), many people here still believe "who doesn't steal, steals from th…

I sympathize. I've actually had some negative reactions from close family as well. Thoase reactions are hurtful but I believe this choice to be the right thing to do. I now rarely speak about my charitable gifts, unless questions of ethics or beliefs arise in conversation. There's nothing wrong with keeping your giving to yourself if that makes you feel more comfortable!

Re: The ‘effective altruists’

#78
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should go without saying but if you go against your culture, your chances of finding a life partner and having children are less likely. So genetically you are tailored to "fit in".

You're also genetically tailored to have lots of sex, theoretically in order to reproduce, but that doesn't prevent people from using birth control. You're genetically programmed to eat lots of fat, theoretically because it would better for you, although these days with easy abundance of foo it's much less heathy. Worth mentioning that you might be genetically predisposed to do something to achieve some end goal, but…

And remember, genes benefit the line not just the individual. Even insect colonies have non-reproducing members. If some folks don't reproduce but protect and nurture other clan children, this increases the next generation's gene survival, then those genes continue too.

Re: The ‘effective altruists’

#79
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does the charity prevent the person from buying a bed net? So you're saying that when a charity provides bed nets, it causes individuals to make the irrational and sub-optimal choice of using a bed net without purchasing it. And this happens frequently enough to significantly reduce the utility that a charity provides? This doesn't seem very intuitive to me. I am curious if you have any evidence that you could po…

> you're saying that when a charity provides bed nets, it causes individuals to make the irrational and sub-optimal choice of using a bed net without purchasing it. If your choice is between buying a bed net, or taking one that is available for free, the rational and optimal choice for you, if we only consider that choice itself, is to take the free one. Isn't that obvious? But this is a first-order effect, and I'm t…

The idea that people in sub-Saharan Africa don't know how how to create things through work because they were given so much seems crazy to me. I was given a roof over my head, free education, food, security, and medical care by my parents and I didn't have to do anything for that. I never saw our house being built, nor food being grown, or took a class in economics(by 18 I took several later). By 18 I still understood that work is needed to create things. Someone in sub-Saharan Africa has probably helped maintain their house, been knitting their own clothes, and maybe even planting and helping farm since they were 14. Then if someone gives them a bed net they suddenly discount all of their previous experience and believe that things are spontaneously created?

It seems to me you're argument is "if you give things to sub-Saharan Africans they start to think that work doesn't leads to things being made". This would be contrary to all the evidence around them. Specifically all of the things they are making on a daily basis. And this effect is so strong it overpowers the net positive of getting a bed net. If this were true then communities given a free net would do substantially worse than communities that pay a nominal fee for bed nets. All of the evidence I've seen shows that communities given free nets do better than ones that pay a nominal fee.

This is very counter intuitive theory. And I don't think mainstream psychology or economics agrees with it. So I was wondering if there was any evidence that bed nets harms the population they are meant to support.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosquito_net

Re: The ‘effective altruists’

#80
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand how Effective Altruism says that you can't treat systemic causes. I think that given the large increase in utility that systemic changes would cause they would be precisely in favor of these changes most of all. I am not aware of any research that says that charity has net negative expected utility. No charity to my knowledge forces any recipients to take the charity. So you would expect any indivi…

To pick a contrived example, I suspect that if you offered unlimited free heroin for personal use! that would make the world a worse place. More subtly, charity could make one person better off and others worse off. You could go around to every doctor in the world and ask them if I gave you a million dollars, what would you do? . Then you could give a million dollars only to the ones who say they would retire and spe…

You could also accidentally save Hitlers life. I'm sorry if I misspoke, I didn't mean to imply it's theoretically impossible to do harm by giving people money.

You're right that it's plausible that their have existed in the world at some time charities that have accidentally done harm. I don't think that it's plausible that it's a significant problem facing charities, specifically large charities advocated by 'Effective Altruists'.

Post reply on HN