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What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

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Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#41

Post by mverwijs »

jackvalentine wrote: post #13
friendzis wrote: post #10

I'm risking getting downvoted to oblivion here, but as an EU citizen I strongly believe that the core reason we have this crisis in the first place (as opposed to something controlled) is nonexistent border protection from southern countries like Italy, Greece. Never have I heard of them employing border patrols to veer off illegal boats. I am by no means denying the need for help for actual war victims, if I could s…

> And in the news reports I usually see people toying with iPhone 5/6 and wearing [designer] jeans/jackets. Do luxury products somehow protect you from bullets, bombs and murderous barbarians?

The point is, however, that a phone is not a luxury item. This article[1], in Dutch, explains that in order to get anywhere a phone is a necessity. Maps, GPS and communication. And not just texts (SMS), but photos and WhatsApp-groups to organize shelter, food. Translation-device.

It is NOT a luxury device.

[1] http://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl/4324/Nieuws/article/detail/4130918...

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#42

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

_euvw wrote: post #30
bordercases wrote: post #21

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

> rape town! The amount of assumptions and fear in reactions like these worry me way more than those refugees themselves.

unfortunately the documented behaviour of the last waves of immigrants on their way to Germany does little to appease these fears

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#43

Post by maxims »

thescriptkiddie wrote: post #11
friendzis wrote: post #10

I'm risking getting downvoted to oblivion here, but as an EU citizen I strongly believe that the core reason we have this crisis in the first place (as opposed to something controlled) is nonexistent border protection from southern countries like Italy, Greece. Never have I heard of them employing border patrols to veer off illegal boats. I am by no means denying the need for help for actual war victims, if I could s…

Ignoring the crisis wouldn't make it go away. Maybe it is possible to keep the refugees out, but that doesn't help them . The whole world has an obligation to help these people.

No one has an obligation to help any one else. You come into this world alone, and you will leave this world alone.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#45

Post by einrealist »

bordercases wrote: post #21

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

At this stage, I expect to happen the following: They will adapt. We will adapt. There will be lots of problems. There will be many opportunities and there will be good.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#46

Post by [deleted] »

junto wrote: post #24

The bit that disturbs me is how the police in many of these "first landing" countries have no qualms about knifing a rubber boat filled with people including small children that can't swim. That's murder. This kind of thing is going on all over the world. Refugees from Burma for example are also getting the same treatment but the Thai's. We in the west are niaeve. We think we can incite revolutions and civil wars to…

[deleted]

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#47

Post by pron »

bordercases wrote: post #21

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

Sure, it's not going to be easy; there will be a bit more crime and a bit more poverty. But there are a few points to consider. First, the number of refugees would amount to no more a few percent of the local European population. It's not a "demographic shock". Second, the entire Middle East was under European control or various degrees of meddling for a very long time (hell, the entire world), and nobody asked them when Europe came barging in. With power comes responsibility, you reap what you sow etc. etc.. Finally, if compassion didn't have a price, it wouldn't be worth much.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#48

Post by Squarel »

bordercases wrote: post #21

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

I saw the data you linked, but I don't see the "poor".

From what I see, they make up a range of demographics and educational levels.

As to why they did not bring their families over in the first place? That is usually because they want to make sure they have somewhere to stay before bringing their families over.

Bigger picture. The population of Europe as a whole is 740 million or so. Even if the entire population of Syrian pitched up in Europe (20 million or so), it would be under 5% of the population. The actual numbers of refugees is around 5 million, so less than 1%. You are trying to suggest that 1% of the population is a "demographic shock"?

The problem arises when the refugees are concentrated in a few countries, and then other nations use the crowding and chaos there as an excuse not to take any.

"Men without solid economic recourse", as per my previous point, these individuals span the entire socio-economic range, and have a wide range of skills. If they are able to gain employment (Many countries do not allow refugees to work) then I do not see why they would not have solid economic recourse.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#49

Post by varjag »

bordercases wrote: post #33
Zirro wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You speak as if Europe has a choice in accepting refugees. I believe the last few weeks in particular show that this choice does not exist. They will come, and we will have to do the best we can out of the situation.

They do! Germany, the UK and the Scandinavian nations are the only European countries (that I was aware of circa within the week) to be actively accepting Syrian refugees - every other country in between them AND the Mediterranean have had negative responses to incoming refugees and I would expect deportation. If refugees were just coming in for safety's sake, there are plenty of other Islamic countries that would be…

All obligations people have to each other boil down to moral obligations. Barbarism and conquest age societies were much more rational than modernity, with little formalities or attachment of value to human life. So it comes with a territory of living in a civil society.

Europe espouses a particular set of humanitarian values and has to act correspondingly. It is in European law (being UNCHR members for a start), tradition and customs of education. It is what constitutes modern Europe.

Now I personally would rather seen Assad dealt with in timely manner, years ago, instead of drawing stupid red lines in the water. This would have prevented the humanitarian disaster propelling the refugee crisis today, and would have hindered the raise of ISIS to boot. Since we can not change the past though, I'm OK with helping people survive with my tax money.

Re: What Refugees Bring When They Run for Their Lives

#50

Post by badlogic »

bordercases wrote: post #21

On a personal note, I'm more likely to investigate anti-refugee arguments because I feel like they're underrated. I agree with the sentiment that we should understand that we're dealing with humans here, not numbers; but just like statistics has its weakness in that it can cause us to over-generalize, picking out the stories of individuals can allow a narrative to be crafted that is overfitted away from the whole. Bi…

Rape town? Really?
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