The Internet of Way Too Many Things • Hacker News Board

Re: The Internet of Way Too Many Things

#251

Post by michaelsbradley » Tue, Sep 08, 2015, 5:52 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #228

michaelsbradley wrote: post #109

The Industrial Internet of Things (IIoT) is also in the works, with standards efforts kicking into high/er gear. The two big contenders seem to be the American-led effort/s that has come together for IEEE P2413[1], and the German-led effort known as Industrie 4.0[2]. See also: Industrie 4.0 vs. the Industrial Internet [3]. [1] https://standards.ieee.org/develop/project/2413.html [&] http://www.industrialinternetconso…

Most factories have had in-house networks for decades. Ordinary CAT-5 cable works quite well in electrically noisy industrial environments, because it's a differential signal on twisted pair. In industry, the big problem is getting all the gear to interoperate. There's also what's called "machine to machine communcation", much of which takes place over low-cost wireless pager networks. Many industrial air conditioner…

You're right, of course. However, the IIoT / Industrie 4.0 is about taking it all to new levels of interoperability and integration.

See: http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/7-things-to-know-about-the...

Re: The Internet of Way Too Many Things

#252

Post by bronson » Tue, Sep 08, 2015, 6:20 PM UTC

nicolsc wrote: post #149

Lot of useless gadgets here .. but the Internet of Things is(will be..) much more than consumer-facing objects. The iceberg analogy never gets old ;) Industry, Agriculture, Logistics, Cities, etc .. all have a lot to get even more smarter. Most IoT stuff won't be about pet tracking or fancy BLE devices talking to your smartphone.

You're redefining "IoT" to include industrial controls, which have been around for 75+ years.

Re: The Internet of Way Too Many Things

#253

Post by tw04 » Tue, Sep 08, 2015, 6:28 PM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #222

tw04 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be the case in the most extreme circumstances. And likely in those circumstances, you'll make money. Much like the general Linux ecosystem, someone else has the same problem, is in college/has no kids/has a ton of spare time, and has already written the program for you. Out of my entire household, I've written one app ever, and it was because I wanted an alert on my sump pump based on an amperage draw on a…

What outlets do you use for monitoring current draw?

I haven't seen anything commercialized yet. As far as I know the only way to do it at this point is to still build your own. There are lots of options, but for something simple you can go with something like this:

https://learn.adafruit.com/tweet-a-watt/

Re: The Internet of Way Too Many Things

#254

Post by Animats » Tue, Sep 08, 2015, 7:25 PM UTC

michaelsbradley wrote: post #251

Animats wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most factories have had in-house networks for decades. Ordinary CAT-5 cable works quite well in electrically noisy industrial environments, because it's a differential signal on twisted pair. In industry, the big problem is getting all the gear to interoperate. There's also what's called "machine to machine communcation", much of which takes place over low-cost wireless pager networks. Many industrial air conditioner…

You're right, of course. However, the IIoT / Industrie 4.0 is about taking it all to new levels of interoperability and integration. See: http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/7-things-to-know-about-the...

That says: “actively drive the reshaping of industry, as it combines aspects of the physical, virtual, IT and cybersystem worlds to help create a new working environment of integrated productivity between worker and machine. It represents a highly dynamic point of achievement, where every company, whether large OEM, major tier supplier or small job shop, can benefit from the technologies and the communication platforms emerging in the market today, some at the speed of light.”

Is there a non-bullshit version?

Re: The Internet of Way Too Many Things

#255

Post by Animats » Tue, Sep 08, 2015, 7:35 PM UTC

mturmon wrote: post #212

jodoherty wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'd be great if the refrigerator could track the expiration dates of the items inside using RFID, then notify you if anything was getting old. For made at home items and non-tagged items, they could also make RFID stickies, where you scan them when you put the item in the fridge, give it a name or take a snapshot with the built-in camera, set your own expiration date, and it tracks how long it's been in there. If yo…

My printer does this with printer cartridges, and I wish I could make it stop. Can I just print until it looks funny and replace it then?

Consider a phone app which reads product barcodes and orders more of the same thing. You shop by pointing your phone at the empty container and telling it how many. Smarter developers might also have it recognize common fruits and vegetables. That might be useful.

I'm surprised Amazon doesn't already have such a device. They have a voice input thing and a push to buy thing. A kitchen appliance which looks and works like a price gun is a logical next step.

Re: The Internet of Way Too Many Things

#256

Post by michaelsbradley » Tue, Sep 08, 2015, 8:33 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #254

michaelsbradley wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, of course. However, the IIoT / Industrie 4.0 is about taking it all to new levels of interoperability and integration. See: http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/7-things-to-know-about-the...

That says: “actively drive the reshaping of industry, as it combines aspects of the physical, virtual, IT and cybersystem worlds to help create a new working environment of integrated productivity between worker and machine. It represents a highly dynamic point of achievement, where every company, whether large OEM, major tier supplier or small job shop, can benefit from the technologies and the communication platfor…

There's some good stuff in there as well – I leave it to you to sift. In all fairness, the quote you gave isn't by the post's author, but rather consists of the words of a VP at Siemens (as quoted by the post's author).

See also the links in my parent comment.

Re: The Internet of Way Too Many Things

#257

Post by michaelsbradley » Tue, Sep 08, 2015, 8:48 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #254

michaelsbradley wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, of course. However, the IIoT / Industrie 4.0 is about taking it all to new levels of interoperability and integration. See: http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/7-things-to-know-about-the...

That says: “actively drive the reshaping of industry, as it combines aspects of the physical, virtual, IT and cybersystem worlds to help create a new working environment of integrated productivity between worker and machine. It represents a highly dynamic point of achievement, where every company, whether large OEM, major tier supplier or small job shop, can benefit from the technologies and the communication platfor…

You can read more about the reference architecture model for Industrie 4.0 (RAMI 4.0), published by ZVEI:

http://www.zvei.org/Downloads/Automation/5305%20Publikation%...

Interestingly, they've settled on OPC UA as the standard for the communications layer.

The reference architecture (IIRA) for the American-led effort can be downloaded from the Industrial Internet Consortium:

http://www.iiconsortium.org/IIRA.htm

Last year, the OPC Foundation seemed to be "lobbying" for OPC UA to play a similarly key role in IIRA as it now has in RAMI 4.0, but that did not come to pass.

I expect that IEEE P2413 will use IIRA as a starting point. Perhaps OPC UA will be "blessed" as one of several options for the communications layer, but we'll have to wait and see.

See: https://standards.ieee.org/news/2015/iic_liaison.html

Re: The Internet of Way Too Many Things

#258

Post by mturmon » Tue, Sep 08, 2015, 11:15 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #255

mturmon wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My printer does this with printer cartridges, and I wish I could make it stop. Can I just print until it looks funny and replace it then?

Consider a phone app which reads product barcodes and orders more of the same thing. You shop by pointing your phone at the empty container and telling it how many. Smarter developers might also have it recognize common fruits and vegetables. That might be useful. I'm surprised Amazon doesn't already have such a device. They have a voice input thing and a push to buy thing. A kitchen appliance which looks and works l…

Yes, that actually sounds useful.

One of the problems with solutions like the omniscient fridge and printer is that they sound helpful but are not helpful in practice. They could benefit from testing.

Also, a structural issue: the incentives of the manufacturer (buy more stuff) are not aligned with my incentives (eliminate routine tasks).

Re: The Internet of Way Too Many Things

#259

Post by JupiterMoon » Wed, Sep 09, 2015, 5:15 AM UTC

webXL wrote: post #241

JupiterMoon wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My CO alarm sounds pretty loudly. You notice it the moment you open the door again smart it does not need to be. How would you get your pet out in time if your CO alarm or smoke alarm went off when you were at work?

Perhaps coming home hours earlier from work and/or calling a neighbor would increase their odds of survival. I find it odd that people are questioning the value of this life and death information while there are plenty of frivolous IOT devices.

Because CO kills surprisingly quickly -- unless your commute is in the order of a couple of minutes you'd be too late. Also you don't send a person into a house with a CO leak so asking you neighbour to retrieve your cat would be placing them in danger.

My point is that the smoke alarm and the CO alarm should be exactly what they are simple alarms that allow occupants to escape in an emergency. Adding IOT capabilities doesn't add to the alarm functionality in sensible ways. However, it does risk introducing vulnerabilities. I don't want my smoke alarm to start sending spam emails (this really happened with a smart fridge a couple of years ago).

Re: The Internet of Way Too Many Things

#260

Post by jodoherty » Wed, Sep 09, 2015, 1:39 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #187

jodoherty wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'd be great if the refrigerator could track the expiration dates of the items inside using RFID, then notify you if anything was getting old. For made at home items and non-tagged items, they could also make RFID stickies, where you scan them when you put the item in the fridge, give it a name or take a snapshot with the built-in camera, set your own expiration date, and it tracks how long it's been in there. If yo…

Please tell me that was a clever sarcastic comment about the whole smart refrigerator idea. Sorry but obsessive compulsive tracking of what exactly is in the refrigerator isn't really a problem for people who are already exacting about such things. Most of us fall more into the camp of "Does it still smell OK"? That's the messy analog reality of so many things around the house that supposed consumer IoT solutions mos…

Nope, but then my sense of smell has been broken for years, so I don't take it for granted that you can just sniff things.

My main concern was finding a way to keep the things that end up in the back of the fridge from staying there for weeks and weeks. I waste more food than I care to because I'm the opposite of what you're attacking me for being -- I'm the guy that puts stuff away and forgets about it the next time I go to eat. That, and it's hard to coordinate with my fiancee on meals when she works midnights.

Anyway, I'm sorry for offending you with my ideas. I just think a smart fridge could actually be handy for wasting less food without having to be obsessive compulsive about tracking and without being a great judge of freshness with my nose. You just glance at the fridge and pick out things to eat before they go bad.