No One to Rescue Me from My Drinking • Hacker News Board

Re: No One to Rescue Me from My Drinking

#81

Post by FilterSweep » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 1:50 PM UTC

mikestew wrote: post #56

FilterSweep wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The underlying philosophy of AA is often ignored by the general public and involves an ego death the likes of which have very few equals. You are indoctrinated to the fact that not only do you have a "disease," or problem, but you are also a weak human being for having succumbed to such disease in the first place. Fortunately most people don't take the entire philosophy of the group to heart - if they did, I couldn't…

but you are also a weak human being for having succumbed to such disease in the first place. That's pretty much the antithesis of the AA philosophy, as well as the exact opposite of the "alcoholism is a disease" thinking. IOW, no one thinks you got cancer because you're a "weak human being". If there's any "ego death" involved, it's that you're not going to solve this in your own. Source: attended my share of AA meet…

>Source: anecdotal data

trashing those who you don't agree with isn't a fair justification to downvote.

My point is proven in the _first_ and _third_ steps of the program, In the admission that you have a problem, and that you are helpless to solve the problem yourself, respectively. [0][1]

What about your point? Your personal opinion of it? It is the admission that you are _helpless_ to your disease, and it is that very reason you don't have the self efficacy to overcome your issues yourself.

An ego death involves, in albeit, sometimes flawed Jungian psychology a loss of identity, and A transformation of ones psyche in such a way that the Self is not perceived the same way after such transformation.[2]

MY argument is that AA involves such ego death in that your admission over having a lack of self-efficacy in solving your own alcoholism is transformative, and you can't do it without the group or other external help, a la Step 3.

I am a different person than you. I find my inability to solve problems for myself _weakness_.

And just because you disagree, instead of positing an argument against my thoughts, you downvote my comment and claim you "read the book."

This was the same exact fashion of discourse that had me leave AA in the first place. I handled "alcoholism" differently. My life is a legal nightmare but alcohol isn't a personal issue.

In sum: People read things differently. But you don't see my flagging your comments because I disagree.

[0] a real source: http://www.alcoholic.org/research/aa-step-1/

[1] http://www.alcoholic.org/research/aa-step-3/

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death

my source: sentenced to AA, went to a few meetings, found it damaging, and worked out an alternative treatment plan with court.

Re: No One to Rescue Me from My Drinking

#82

Post by billjings » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 1:58 PM UTC

seizethecheese wrote: post #68

coleifer wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever been to an AA meeting or struggled with addiction? If not then I wouldn't make comments like this.

Why not? HN discusses all sorts of treatments all the time that none of us have tried. Making Alcoholics Anonymous unimpeachable smacks of religiousity.

The point is that reading an article on Salon does not make anyone an authority.

Re: No One to Rescue Me from My Drinking

#83

Post by billjings » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 2:16 PM UTC

gigamuflon wrote: post #71

billjings wrote: post #47

I have a short list of books that I recommend that have changed my worldview. First and foremost on that list is Bruce Alexander's _The Globalization Of Addiction_: http://www.amazon.com/The-Globalization-Addiction-Poverty-Sp... If you've got the bug, that book is not going to help you. It'll just tell you how screwed you are. If you don't have the bug, I think that book might help you understand the problem.

Sorry for going off-topic but I'd be interested seeing your reading list. Care to share it?

It's not like I have it written down, but...

* Plato's Republic. It's not meant to be read alone, I think. Read it with a like minded group of folks a book at a time. Our discussions of this work still inform how I think of all the ways people form groups together, in more or less ideal forms. * The Master And His Emissary. This book opened up the ancient worldview to me, and also gave me a strong rap on the head that "figuring things out" might not be the best way to navigate through life.

Re: No One to Rescue Me from My Drinking

#84

Post by hammock » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 2:41 PM UTC

madaxe_again wrote: post #65

Ah, this rang so many bells. My ex of ten years ago drank huge amounts and was in utter denial about there even being a possibility of a problem. I used to have to go out and find her, usually asleep in an alley, or passed out in a bar's toilets - the worst occasion was when she threw a brick at me, as I had come to pry her away from a bar, and the recoil sent her tumbling into the Thames, in December - fished her ou…

That story would make a brilliant song.

Re: No One to Rescue Me from My Drinking

#85

Post by EliRivers » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 3:04 PM UTC

hashberry wrote: post #53

jheriko wrote: post #9

i wonder if this was a man how the story would go. much worse i'd imagine :/

I was thinking the same thing. It seems people are more forgiving of a woman's transgressions. For example, the bar manager who put her in a cab after four Manhattans. I'm trying to imagine a bar manager walking a drunk man out and putting him in a cab... unless this type of thing is common in New York?

Having done some work in my (relative) youth in situations where people got drunk sometimes, for me it was about self-protection. Some drunk people, when you try to help them out, get aggressive. Even if they don't get outright violent, that they threaten is just not pleasant.

So I would tend to be reluctant to help people that were above a certain size or physicality. Smaller people were much less of a threat, and I was exposing myself to less danger by helping them. Women, with their tendency on average to be both shorter, lighter and having a smaller proportion of muscle, happened to be below this "physical threat" threshold far more often than men.

Some regulars I'd see intoxicated enough to know that they weren't the violent drunk type and they'd often get a helping hand, even if they were twice my size. Conversely, some small people I knew were the violent drunk type and I didn't get involved.

Re: No One to Rescue Me from My Drinking

#86

Post by dylanz » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 3:10 PM UTC

madaxe_again wrote: post #65

Ah, this rang so many bells. My ex of ten years ago drank huge amounts and was in utter denial about there even being a possibility of a problem. I used to have to go out and find her, usually asleep in an alley, or passed out in a bar's toilets - the worst occasion was when she threw a brick at me, as I had come to pry her away from a bar, and the recoil sent her tumbling into the Thames, in December - fished her ou…

Man, what a chapter of your life. I've had something similar, and it's amazing to what extreme trials and tribulations you'll go through with someone during a relationship. I like to think we learn a lot from these experiences, so maybe the three legged cats are there for a reason.

Re: No One to Rescue Me from My Drinking

#87

Post by danharaj » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 3:29 PM UTC

jschwartzi wrote: post #57

danharaj wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh come off it. We're a social species and we depend on others immensely for our well-being. Different people have different needs but not one of us goes it alone. "Personal responsibility" is a massive joke in a society where everything one does is connected to dozens to millions of people and we depend on huge organizations of human industry for our necessities. I see no merit to your contempt.

You're not usually responsible for the situations you find yourself in, but you are responsible for how you behave in those situations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error

Re: No One to Rescue Me from My Drinking

#88

Post by speeder » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 4:06 PM UTC

bjwbell wrote: post #70

speeder wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I clearly have some kind of vice related to caffeine... In the hardest periods of my life I managed to guzzle 6 liters of coca-cola every day, plus eating lots of chocolate, and drinking lots of coffee and tea, of course this also ruined my overall health. I recently managed to "get clean", but I also stopped working, then I gave up, decided to buy 1 liter of red-bull style energy drink (not redbull itself because I…

This is just a suggestion but have you tried running? I'm also a caffeine /addict/ and running is my substitute of choice. Exercise is a huge stimulant (endorphins)

I also have thyroid disease, one of the symptoms is that bones and muscles are weaker, and that losing lean mass is very easy, I tried running before, but it weakens me (literally, I lose muscle), also it hurts a lot (I feel a burning sensation in my leg bones when I run long distances, or when I run several days in a row).

The only exercises I do that actually help my health is weight lifting with low reps (with high reps I also start to lose muscle).

Re: No One to Rescue Me from My Drinking

#89

Post by speeder » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 4:08 PM UTC

brador wrote: post #55

speeder wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I clearly have some kind of vice related to caffeine... In the hardest periods of my life I managed to guzzle 6 liters of coca-cola every day, plus eating lots of chocolate, and drinking lots of coffee and tea, of course this also ruined my overall health. I recently managed to "get clean", but I also stopped working, then I gave up, decided to buy 1 liter of red-bull style energy drink (not redbull itself because I…

How about flipping it? You need the ADHD to function maximally in your life/career, so you're unconsciously self medicating to induce it through caffeine?

What you said makes no sense.

I am struggling to barely work, I keep getting repeteadly fired even when my performance is good (because my behaviour is too strange in the office), I lost a girlfriend due to ADHD (I have to constantly fidget or move, this girlfriend tought I was anxious and didn't wanted to pay attention to her when I was fidgeting when she was talking to me).

Also caffeine don't induce ADHD (the medical condition).

Re: No One to Rescue Me from My Drinking

#90

Post by brador » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 5:09 PM UTC

speeder wrote: post #89

brador wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about flipping it? You need the ADHD to function maximally in your life/career, so you're unconsciously self medicating to induce it through caffeine?

What you said makes no sense. I am struggling to barely work, I keep getting repeteadly fired even when my performance is good (because my behaviour is too strange in the office), I lost a girlfriend due to ADHD (I have to constantly fidget or move, this girlfriend tought I was anxious and didn't wanted to pay attention to her when I was fidgeting when she was talking to me). Also caffeine don't induce ADHD (the medi…

Caffeine doesn't induce ADHD in the general population. Individual cases are possible, or more commonly, ADHD type behaviours caused by external stimuli. Actual genetic ADHD is extremely rare and severely debilitating when it does occur.