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Why human intelligence and AI will co-evolve

nautil.us

91–100 of 112 posts

Re: Why human intelligence and AI will co-evolve

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The detailed inner workings of a complex machine intelligence (or of a biological brain) may turn out to be incomprehensible to our human minds—or at least the human minds of today". Did he really say that? I probably should avoid talking right now . Ahaha. Ahahahahaaaa. Oh boy. I mean, the mind isn't that hard to crack once you start conceiving of exactly what problems it was designed to solve, what functions it wa…

Heh, how is this any different from classic AI arrogance, why should we believe this is not exactly the pitfall the author cautions against at the beginning? I mean this sounds almost verbatim like so many "yeah we're getting some really good results, almost there, just a few ends to tie up" sentiments from over the years. Of course I can't say whether you're right or wrong, only time will tell, but I have a pretty s…

Again: I think the test is to replicate distinctly psychological behavior, to come up with theories of how actually-existing minds work, rather than to come up with theories of "pure logic" or "pure rationality". You don't do real science by trying to explain your sci-fi imaginings. You try to explain things you've already got in the world.

Re: Why human intelligence and AI will co-evolve

#92

Why do people think they can build anything worthy of the name "AI" by just fucking around with neural networks instead of by specifying exactly what sort of models and exactly what sort of inference constitute "intelligence" in the first place? It's like trying to build an airplane by studying hang-gliders instead of aerodynamics.

Cause nobody knows how intelligence arises

probmods.org

Re: Why human intelligence and AI will co-evolve

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it's true that humans are too dumb to crack AI from first principles -- which as I said is certainly conceivable, and which Hsu alludes to in the quote you've selected -- he's not basing that on the infinite-dimensional space description in the second paragraph. The point of the second paragraph was just to caution against concluding it's an easy problem based on the abundance of intelligence around us.

And my point is that that's not a very good argument. We don't have to use random walk algorithms to look for our solutions to the problem. If someone shows you a list of sorted numbers and tells you they were sorted over a period of millions of years using bogosort, that may be true but it is not a good argument against the existence of efficient sorting algorithms.

Evolution is not exactly a random walk, it's a lot better. But it's plausible that creating an AI more "intelligent" than humans (whatever that means) is beyond our current intellectual capabilities, although I seriously doubt it.

He's forgetting two other scaling modes applicable to human intelligence: accumulating knowledge and collaborating. By accumulating knowledge we can build upon the work of the generations before us and take essentially unlimited time to crack a problem. Collaboration allows not only parallel processing of problems but also interacting and exchanging inspiration towards the solution of a single problem; both which scale quite well with a lot of intelligent people.

Note that there are almost trivial arguments showing some problems are beyond the means of our finite brain (viz unbounded algorithmic complexity or the halting problem).

Re: Why human intelligence and AI will co-evolve

#95

A self-modifying algorithm has a distinct advantage over organic life: it has the potential to rapidly improve any part of itself in a timescale of nanoseconds to experiment with specific, fundamental improvements, whereas organic life generally has to wait years for random mutations to fundamentally adapt because a single organism cannot evolve itself, only make do with its form and learn within the limits of its ne…

So everyone keeps saying this but I don't see any evidence that this will actually be the case.

Consider that the first artificial intelligence probably won't be (exactly) designed at all. It will be a neural network or some other construct of an advanced algorithm that's solving some machine learning problem, and once it emerges no single human being (or possibly even group of humans) will fully understand why it works. Lets say that this AI is, against all odds, smarter than any human being. Chances are that NO human being will understand how the AI works, but why would you think that the AI understands itself? Why would we be certain that an AI can understand it's own neural network better than humans can, and furthermore, be able to quickly iterate on it, especially if a chaotic and complex process produced it in the first place?

I suspect that machine intelligence will arise in a much more similar fashion to messy organic evolution than you think, and it will be subject to all the same disadvantages - lots of random chance, dead ends and very slow advancement by trial and error.

Re: Why human intelligence and AI will co-evolve

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever. Unfortunately, in doing so you have used the "AI is analogous to heavier-than-air-flight" meme. Please discard it, it's an albatross to discussion. Or to be more precise, it is a lead balloon - it never gets off the ground; it's a red herring. IOW you've chosen a poor and annoyingly wrongheaded counterexample. Now try and digest that.

If you use an argument and someone provides a single counter example, then your argument is false. That's it. You can continue arguing your conclusion or view, but you need to find another argument to support it. The fact that humans could invent super-flight despite not being able to build a bird means that the argument that we cannot build a super intelligent machine because we don't yet know how to make ourselves…

[deleted]

Re: Why human intelligence and AI will co-evolve

#97

A self-modifying algorithm has a distinct advantage over organic life: it has the potential to rapidly improve any part of itself in a timescale of nanoseconds to experiment with specific, fundamental improvements, whereas organic life generally has to wait years for random mutations to fundamentally adapt because a single organism cannot evolve itself, only make do with its form and learn within the limits of its ne…

So everyone keeps saying this but I don't see any evidence that this will actually be the case. Consider that the first artificial intelligence probably won't be (exactly) designed at all. It will be a neural network or some other construct of an advanced algorithm that's solving some machine learning problem, and once it emerges no single human being (or possibly even group of humans) will fully understand why it wo…

It doesn't require assuming that it initially understands itself to eventually understand itself. Just the fact that it can measure and experiment with many copies in accelerated timescales means it will evolve a lot more quickly.

Imagine what you could do with a planet-wide human breeding and genetic modification program with millions of generations - that's actually feasible for an AI.

Re: Why human intelligence and AI will co-evolve

#98

What a bizarre logical leap this early paragraph makes to try to explain why AI is beyond the capabilities of mere humans: "AI can be thought of as a search problem over an effectively infinite, high-dimensional landscape of possible programs. Nature solved this search problem by brute force, effectively performing a huge computation involving trillions of evolving agents of varying information processing capability…

The engineering of flight is something that's achievable through simple understanding of physics laws and principles. Birds did not engineer flight, we did, and we were only able to engineer a crude version of it. The natural abilities of flight in birds are still superior in many ways to engineered flight. So, how can we assume from this that we'll be able to build a version of ourselves that's completely more intelligent?

Humans engineering functional variants of inferior species' physical capabilities is undeniably incomparable to humans engineering a better, more intelligent version of ourselves. Maybe, a beneficial albeit simpler version can be engineered, but one that makes us obsolete? It's hard for me to conclude that's not a huge leap in assumption.

Re: Why human intelligence and AI will co-evolve

#99
post #2

> It is easy to forget that the computer revolution was led by a handful of geniuses: individuals with truly unusual cognitive ability. Great man theory needs to be strangled and put to rest.

Without "great men", computer progress might have ground along something like this, in tiny steps.

IBM had been building tabulators for decades. But they just added and subtracted. Mechanical desk calculators had been built that could multiply and divide. Those came together in the IBM 602A Calculating Punch of 1946. A multiply in only a few seconds! Division, too. You could even do Newton's method by wiring the plugboard appropriately.

The limits of gear-driven arithmetic having been reached, IBM tried using vacuum tubes, and produced the IBM 603 Multiplier. This was roughly equivalent to a 602A, but it used tubes. It was a trial to find out if tubes would work in a fielded product; only 100 were built. They did. So IBM went on to the 604, which was like a 603 with more registers and more program steps.

Meanwhile, crystal radios had been around for decades, and germanium diodes followed as a cleaned-up form of those diodes. Some experimenters had fooled around with 3-terminal solid state devices; Lilienfeld patented one in 1925. But until materials processing improved, nobody could make one consistently. Only when germanium diodes were badly needed for WWII radar was that materials problem solved. The transistor followed.

So IBM kept plugging along. Next was the IBM 608, which was sort of like a 604, but with transistors. Then came the 609, which was like a 608, but faster. There hadn't been any conceptual change from the gear and relay era, but the hardware was getting much better. All these machines used decimal arithmetic.

Meanwhile, magnetic recording was coming along. There were wire recorders in the 1930s, tape recorders in the 1940s, and by 1944, Ampex was making some good ones. The first digital tape drive was a project for Arlington Hall, a predecessor of NSA.

In the 1940s through the 1960s, there were many special purpose machines that were almost computers, but not quite. American Totalizator had machines for racetracks. (They later invested in UNIVAC). Teleregister had machines for stockbrokers, and later, the first airline reservation system, Reservisor. There were ticketing systems for railroads. There was a huge piece of electronics built by AT&T to process phone long distance billing records; all it really did was match call start and call end data on special paper tapes, then punch a card for each completed call. None of these were stored-program computers as we think of them today.

No big breakthroughs in this line of development yet; just incremental improvements.

The plugboards were a pain, and it was widely recognized that some better way to store programs and data would be a big help. Lots of things were tried - acoustic delay lines, drums, storage CRTs, magnetic core memory, plated wire memory... Magnetic cores were invented separately by several people, appearing about the same time in a British computer, an MIT computer, and a Seeburg jukebox. They were expensive, but worked.

IBM kept plugging away, producing the IBM 650, which was a programmable computer in the modern sense, but was mostly an upgrade path from the 604/609 series. Through the 1950s and early 1960s, IBM kept coming out with new and better models. There was a "business" line, with decimal arithmetic, and a "scientific" line, with binary arithmetic. Some of the programming arrangements were strange by modern standards; look up how the IBM 1401 did variable-length arithmetic with "word marks", how the 1620 had a decimal multiplication table in memory, and the strange addressing of the IBM 650.

Then IBM decided they had too many incompatible products, and developed the IBM System/360 family. One range of machines, all more or less compatible, with both binary and decimal arithmetic for both the scientific and business markets. Floating point, even. And a new way to make components - IBM Solid Logic Technology, individual transistors and other components placed into ceramic substrates by automated machinery. It wasn't quite an IC, but it was getting close. IBM now had something that looks pretty much like today's computers. Small and cheap were in the future, but the architecture had settled down. Binary arithmetic, byte-oriented, random-access memory, a reasonable instruction set, and a modest number of CPU registers had emerged as the winning architecture.

The early days were mostly about incremental improvement like that. Without Turing or Von Neumann, all this would have happened anyway.

Re: Why human intelligence and AI will co-evolve

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So everyone keeps saying this but I don't see any evidence that this will actually be the case. Consider that the first artificial intelligence probably won't be (exactly) designed at all. It will be a neural network or some other construct of an advanced algorithm that's solving some machine learning problem, and once it emerges no single human being (or possibly even group of humans) will fully understand why it wo…

It doesn't require assuming that it initially understands itself to eventually understand itself. Just the fact that it can measure and experiment with many copies in accelerated timescales means it will evolve a lot more quickly. Imagine what you could do with a planet-wide human breeding and genetic modification program with millions of generations - that's actually feasible for an AI.

The devil's in the details. Lets suppose for the sake of argument that your AI actually only takes as much material and technology as a modern high end server to build, say $2000 worth of labor and materials. How does the AI suddenly have billions of dollars worth of materials (and initially only human labor) available to do this sort of manufacturing and research? And mustn't human beings be complicit in providing this material and building the factories to scale the production of these experimental units? It certainly wouldn't be able to accomplish this herculean task in a bunker without people knowing about it. The AI doesn't spring forth from the womb godlike, able to access the resources of nations to do this. "Feasible" in this case means feasible with the massive compliance of human beings, probably initially for years.
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