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The Gracie jiu-jitsu story

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Re: The Gracie jiu-jitsu story

#71

Post by pokstad »

sanoli wrote: post #60
roel_v wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'BJJ', yes (although e.g. Pancrase which started around the time of UFC1 had skilled grapplers - if there had been a few more (besides Ken) Pancrase fighters 'seeded' in the early tournaments, history would've looked different), but not 'Gracie JJ'. There are still very good grapplers with the last name Gracie of course, but the whole 'worship us for we brought the light' (e.g. the 'Rickson is 400-0' spiel, 'we perfe…

Even here in Brazil the Gracies are respected, but their outrageous claims are not taken seriously anymore. Every BJJ practioner laughs at Rickson's 400 win crap, and if you go on local forums, nobody claims BJJ is more than one aspect of MMA, as important as the others. Hell, my BJJ lineage is from Fadda, who never learned if form a Gracie.

Rickson's own dad debunked that silly 400 number. He basically counted his rolls on the mat and sparring sessions.

Re: The Gracie jiu-jitsu story

#72

Post by pokstad »

IndianAstronaut wrote: post #12
peatmoss wrote: post #4

Fascinating history. It's strange to see what the various jujitsu-descended arts choose as their comfort level with injury. The traditional jujitsu ryu had lots of maming / killing techniques, which have been taken out and readded depending on the art: Judo focused on making a very safe art that could be applied full-intensity in a sporting context. Aikido focussed on making a purely defensive art. Then Gracie jujits…

>broken eye sockets and arms aren't enough to call a fight. That is just wrong. In any professional MMA organization, fights are called at this point to prevent permanent injury to the fighters so that they can sustain a long career.

Jon Jones was allowed to keep righting with a hyperextended elbow... and he won. He had to take a big chunk of time off to recover afterwards but he was fighting again.

Re: The Gracie jiu-jitsu story

#73

Post by pokstad »

kderbe wrote: post #26
peatmoss wrote: post #4

Fascinating history. It's strange to see what the various jujitsu-descended arts choose as their comfort level with injury. The traditional jujitsu ryu had lots of maming / killing techniques, which have been taken out and readded depending on the art: Judo focused on making a very safe art that could be applied full-intensity in a sporting context. Aikido focussed on making a purely defensive art. Then Gracie jujits…

A Gracie practitioner once told me that he felt MMA was safer than boxing for the competitors' long-term health. His explanation was that boxing matches typically run much longer and involve many more head strikes per match than MMA matches, which means the boxers are more at risk for brain damage.

This was also part of the UFC's argument to help regulate MMA. They kept a small number of rounds, a point system, and refs who could call a match when someone stopped protecting themselves. This, along with no strikes to the back of the head, made UFC on average more safe than boxing (unless you get head kicked, in which case you're definitely worse off).

Re: The Gracie jiu-jitsu story

#74

Post by gozmike »

V-2 wrote: post #43

I wonder if there are any HN-ers actually practicing bjj? Purple belt here

4-stripe white belt here, train 3-4x per week and completely hooked. If anyone trains in Montreal, you're free to come visit our startup's office, we have mats!

Re: The Gracie jiu-jitsu story

#78

Post by metamet »

bmelton wrote: post #37
peatmoss wrote: post #4

Fascinating history. It's strange to see what the various jujitsu-descended arts choose as their comfort level with injury. The traditional jujitsu ryu had lots of maming / killing techniques, which have been taken out and readded depending on the art: Judo focused on making a very safe art that could be applied full-intensity in a sporting context. Aikido focussed on making a purely defensive art. Then Gracie jujits…

"Then Gracie jujitsu decided to re-brutalize judo." Sincere question, but when did that happen? I suspect that you're conflating Gracie Jiu-Jitsu with MMA. The art of jiu-jitsu seems to me to be as passive as it ever has been. There've always been choke holds, and armbars, and while the techniques evolve over time, none of that has changed in BJJ. A punch is not a BJJ technique, for example, but a boxing, or Muay Tha…

> "Then Gracie jujitsu decided to re-brutalize judo."

This isn't particularly true. I think the poster was thinking closer to Vale Tudo (and, of course, MMA), which BJJ has close roots with.

BJJ is a descendant of Judo in that it essentially takes Judo to its logical conclusion. Judo (and BJJ) begin standing. But Judo ends with a simple series of points (take down into, maybe, a submission).

BJJ goes until someone taps. That is, you start the roll standing (or kneeling, which is more lax) and continue sparring until a submission is performed. Judo would stop after the take down and quick sub attempt.

The Gracies, however, did initially use BJJ as a form of self defense. It's still very much an aspect of rolling to go for position over submission. While you can submit from traditionally vulnerable spots, you can also nullify your opponent's offense, such as in guard.

Ultimately, however, you want to mount them or take their back. In a street fight, this dominate position would let you strike and choke with ease.

In fact, a lot of early BJJ schools would have people from other martial arts who would dojo storm. There's a pretty well known story where one BJJ teacher (I forget who off hand) told his students to not strike with fist. Only slap.

So they would mount the opponent and slap at them until they could choke them.

I enjoy doing BJJ because I can train and spar at whatever intensity (light, medium, hard), and even go compete at tournaments, without injury. You learn your limits and tap early and often.

Re: The Gracie jiu-jitsu story

#79

Post by metamet »

peatmoss wrote: post #67
bmelton wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Then Gracie jujitsu decided to re-brutalize judo." Sincere question, but when did that happen? I suspect that you're conflating Gracie Jiu-Jitsu with MMA. The art of jiu-jitsu seems to me to be as passive as it ever has been. There've always been choke holds, and armbars, and while the techniques evolve over time, none of that has changed in BJJ. A punch is not a BJJ technique, for example, but a boxing, or Muay Tha…

> Sincere question, but when did that happen? I suspect that you're conflating Gracie Jiu-Jitsu with MMA. The art of jiu-jitsu seems to me to be as passive as it ever has been. There've always been choke holds, and armbars, and while the techniques evolve over time, none of that has changed in BJJ. Fair question, and I'll readily admit I have limited experience with BJJ. However, at my first judo dojo, we shared spac…

Having experience in both, there are far fewer injuries in BJJ than Judo.

While BJJ does practice takedowns, it is not the primary focus of the sport, where Judo always starts standing.

You rarely, if ever, get injured from a joint lock, even when rolling (sparring) or competing in a tournament in BJJ.

Wrist locks and heel hooks are mentioned and practiced early on in BJJ, but they are not permitted as techniques to use on or by white belts while rolling. It is certainly a riskier submission, as you don't tend to feel it before it's too late, but I have never seen someone injured by a joint lock in years of training when it wasn't admittedly their fault (ie: they didn't tap when they should have).

But I have seen quite a few shoulder injuries from takedowns, in both Judo and BJJ. People need to learn how to fall properly, but accidents do happen.

Re: The Gracie jiu-jitsu story

#80

Post by logfromblammo »

qrendel wrote: post #48
V-2 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with "deadly" styles and moves is known as Kano paradox (after Jigoro Kano the judo founder, not the Mortal Kombat Kano ;) ), or alternatively a randori paradox. It boils down to that: you can learn eye-gouging, but you can't really practice it, so it ends up less effective than more "modest" and safer techniques. Learning to rip out throats without actually ever ripping it lacks lacks in the so-called al…

Additionally to that, it's also not particularly useful in most situations even if it can be performed effectively. Unless you're truly in imminent danger for your life then killing someone will likely be a hugely disproportionate reaction, especially if done in such a brutal way as ripping out throats, and will lead to some serious consequences like long jail time, getting sued for medical bills, etc. There's a comm…

No. The part about "and was beating on him a little to show he'd won" tells me that the guy on top is now the aggressor.

The guy getting beat on does not know when the other guy will stop, or even if he will ever stop. Given that he got "completely brutalized" for using a maiming technique in self-defense against an opponent that clearly outmatched him, my hindsight judgment is that it would have been justified for anyone present to threaten lethal force to stop the fight, simply to prevent further injury to the loser.

This is why you avoid fights in civilized society, and disengage as quickly as possible if you cannot. The best fighter in the world is the one who can run away the fastest.

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