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The Gracie jiu-jitsu story

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Re: The Gracie jiu-jitsu story

#41

Post by Akkuma »

mikekchar wrote: post #34
peatmoss wrote: post #4

Fascinating history. It's strange to see what the various jujitsu-descended arts choose as their comfort level with injury. The traditional jujitsu ryu had lots of maming / killing techniques, which have been taken out and readded depending on the art: Judo focused on making a very safe art that could be applied full-intensity in a sporting context. Aikido focussed on making a purely defensive art. Then Gracie jujits…

I'm not a aikido-ist, but I've had some friends who were very high level. They explained to me the origin of aikido was as a technique that policemen could use with plausible deniability. When people watch someone fight against an aikido-ist they see: "The guy charged at him and something happened and then the guy ran right into that lamp post and knocked himself out". Whether that is really true, or I misinterpreted…

I hope for your friend's sake that they just misinterpreted the origin.

Aikido has a Paul Bunyan creator that I would say is analogous to Yoda. He was from the stories I heard, from a direct student of his Roy Suenaka of Wadokai Aikido, pretty much a modern Miyamoto Musashi and I'm sure no one will ever get completely true stories today. He started his life as a farmer, served in the Japanese Army during WW2, and had a spiritual awakening eventually leading to the creation of Aikido. He's an interesting person due to when he lived and the life he lived.

Aikido has soft (spiritual) and hard (martial) techniques. A lot of sensei's only subscribe to one or the other and there are two major societies, Ki and Aikikai. When I practiced, we subscribed to both, so we even made use of things like choke holds and punches to initiate.

Re: The Gracie jiu-jitsu story

#42

Post by V-2 »

peatmoss wrote: post #4

Fascinating history. It's strange to see what the various jujitsu-descended arts choose as their comfort level with injury. The traditional jujitsu ryu had lots of maming / killing techniques, which have been taken out and readded depending on the art: Judo focused on making a very safe art that could be applied full-intensity in a sporting context. Aikido focussed on making a purely defensive art. Then Gracie jujits…

They didn't "rebrutalize" judo, although admittedly bjj stayed closer to the requirements of real-life fights in compare to modern judo which neglected less spectacular aspects (such as ground fighting) for the sake of more flashy stuff (throws look way better on TV).

Re: The Gracie jiu-jitsu story

#44

Post by V-2 »

mcv wrote: post #38
RobertoG wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Fascinating history. It's strange to see what the various jujitsu-descended arts choose as their comfort level with injury." I think is not strange. This oscillation is normal. There is a tension in all the martial arts that serious practicants are very aware of. If you practice only the form, where you can practice everything, you are not really practicing, because you are not used to what means a real fight. In th…

I've done about one month of Pencak Silat many years ago, and in that month, I learned to attack the eyes (a whip with the fingers to cause pain or temporarily blind) and how to rip out a throat. It was obviously not done as sport. And yet this was also a fairly defensive style where every move started from a dodge and you never attacked with a fist. But it was a very aggressive defense.

The problem with "deadly" styles and moves is known as Kano paradox (after Jigoro Kano the judo founder, not the Mortal Kombat Kano ;) ), or alternatively a randori paradox.

It boils down to that: you can learn eye-gouging, but you can't really practice it, so it ends up less effective than more "modest" and safer techniques.

Learning to rip out throats without actually ever ripping it lacks lacks in the so-called aliveness aspect: https://youtu.be/imjmLWj5WCU

Re: The Gracie jiu-jitsu story

#45

Post by roel_v »

sfjailbird wrote: post #23
roel_v wrote: post #19

For some reason, these stories always leave out that UFC 1 was organized by a Gracie with pretty much the goal of showcasing Gracie JJ. UFC 2 (I think? or was it 1 already?) even had a half-time 'ceremony' where Rickson gave Helio a 'lifetime award' of some sort - while booed by the audience; and rightfully - that was clear self-promotion and put a shadow over the objectiveness of the whole event. In that light, the…

> For some reason, these stories always leave out that UFC 1 was organized by a Gracie with pretty much the goal of showcasing Gracie JJ Second paragraph: In 1993, Rórion Gracie founded the Ultimate Fighting Championship as a way to spread Gracie jiu-jitsu to North America, inspiring the rise of mixed martial arts.

Fair enough, I did overlook that :) And indeed overall the OP is more nuanced than many stories like it are.

Re: The Gracie jiu-jitsu story

#47

Post by Jtsummers »

V-2 wrote: post #43

I wonder if there are any HN-ers actually practicing bjj? Purple belt here

Seems to be a fair number of BJJ practitioners here. It comes up in most threads on fitness/exercise. I've only just started (6 months now), mostly as a way to force myself to really exercise regularly. Having a positive social environment and forking out $$ each month encourages me to actually attend, versus the (good) free gym available through work.

EDIT: If you really want to know it could be put in as a poll. Ask which martial arts (if any) people here participate in.

Re: The Gracie jiu-jitsu story

#48

Post by qrendel »

V-2 wrote: post #44
mcv wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've done about one month of Pencak Silat many years ago, and in that month, I learned to attack the eyes (a whip with the fingers to cause pain or temporarily blind) and how to rip out a throat. It was obviously not done as sport. And yet this was also a fairly defensive style where every move started from a dodge and you never attacked with a fist. But it was a very aggressive defense.

The problem with "deadly" styles and moves is known as Kano paradox (after Jigoro Kano the judo founder, not the Mortal Kombat Kano ;) ), or alternatively a randori paradox. It boils down to that: you can learn eye-gouging, but you can't really practice it, so it ends up less effective than more "modest" and safer techniques. Learning to rip out throats without actually ever ripping it lacks lacks in the so-called al…

Additionally to that, it's also not particularly useful in most situations even if it can be performed effectively. Unless you're truly in imminent danger for your life then killing someone will likely be a hugely disproportionate reaction, especially if done in such a brutal way as ripping out throats, and will lead to some serious consequences like long jail time, getting sued for medical bills, etc.

There's a common (apocryphal?) story about an untrained guy who got into fight with an experienced grappler. The grappler got the takedown, got on top and was beating on him a little to show he'd won. Then right when he was about to stop and let him go, the guy tries to stick his fingers in his eyes. He ends up getting completely brutalized by his now really upset opponent who had already won and wants to punish the loser for trying to permanently blind him rather than just accept he'd lost.

You basically stop being the victim and become the aggressor at that point, so it's good to be able to de-escalate a fight without having to severely maim the other person. Having a small repertoire of techniques that can only be used to kill or maim someone leaves you vulnerable in a huge number of self-defense scenarios.

Re: The Gracie jiu-jitsu story

#49

Post by roel_v »

sanoli wrote: post #35
roel_v wrote: post #19

For some reason, these stories always leave out that UFC 1 was organized by a Gracie with pretty much the goal of showcasing Gracie JJ. UFC 2 (I think? or was it 1 already?) even had a half-time 'ceremony' where Rickson gave Helio a 'lifetime award' of some sort - while booed by the audience; and rightfully - that was clear self-promotion and put a shadow over the objectiveness of the whole event. In that light, the…

You're saying this in a time when every good mma athlete has a very respectable BJJ game. Before that, people stuck to their art. It was either BJJ guys winning, or big wrestlers. Then people started to get more well-rounded. But I remember watching fights in Brazil where there was almost ten different styles represented, including judo and wrestling. BJJ would win. When the others started learning BJJ it changed a l…

'BJJ', yes (although e.g. Pancrase which started around the time of UFC1 had skilled grapplers - if there had been a few more (besides Ken) Pancrase fighters 'seeded' in the early tournaments, history would've looked different), but not 'Gracie JJ'. There are still very good grapplers with the last name Gracie of course, but the whole 'worship us for we brought the light' (e.g. the 'Rickson is 400-0' spiel, 'we perfected JJ for 60 years' (yeah and then it took 2 years to break it, so what?) ) is undeserved. Even in UFC5 Royce had a hard time with Ken, Royce was broken after 36 mins but Ken came out smiling.

The thing with Americans is (saying this as a European, and as as someone who's generally abhorred by the low kickboxing skills in the US) that they're so pragmatic, and that that is much more to credit for the amazing development of MMA than the basics the Gracies brought in the 1990's (although it cannot be assigned to one person of course, so it's much more difficult to build a Hero story around it). Look at how much the techniques, the training, the professionalism, everything has improved since the early 2000's, when people like Tank Abbott or Kimo actually were top level fighters. As soon as MMA took off in the US, it was all about 'what wins the fights'. Whereas in Japan, and here in Europe as well, things were (are?) much more about 'bushido' and 'following what we've alway done' and all that nonsense which keeps people from improving. As late as 2007 or 2009, there were many 'MMA fights' (which were usually just sideshows during kickboxing events...) where any blue belt BJJ player could step into the ring and win pretty much any fight in Again not sure where I'm going with this and my comment reads like a Sherdog post of the type that made me leave that site years ago, so I'll just stop :)

Re: The Gracie jiu-jitsu story

#50

Post by sanoli »

dbs wrote: post #36

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is less about the show and more about a philosophy of life. Being trained in the arts many years ago, things like "a body is as strong as its weakest link", have served me well in life and business. I don't know of any other martial art where your formative years are spent being kicked up in the ass. You learn how to survive under very harsh conditions and how to be resilient. You don't need to be…

> I don't know of any other martial art where your formative years are spent being kicked up in the ass.

Judo and Wrestling kicked my ass as much, if not more, than BJJ practice. Probably more, as they're both faster paced than BJJ.

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