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The most profitable source of income for banks? Overdraft fees

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Re: The most profitable source of income for banks? Overdraft fees

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

*> You've got $16 left for food and then then the Flickr account you forgot to cancel gets charged to your account, I don't want to be rude but I wonder what set of circumstances leads a poor person to subscribe to a relatively superfluous service (unless you're a pro photographer?) in the first place.

Could happen from anything. I've also been poor, and one thing that sent me over the edge was a check that someone waited months to cash. Thought I had $200 in my account, and made a payment with debit card, only to go under $0. What's worse, I wasn't notified, and made a couple more charges, all at exorbitant rates, until I realized what had happen. As always, it's best to interpret others' comments in the most gene…

> I've also been poor, and one thing that sent me over the edge was a check that someone waited months to cash. Thought I had $200 in my account, and made a payment with debit card, only to go under $0.

While this isn't something that is directly taught (a checking account ought to come with detailed guidance), if you write checks, you should use your checkbook to track your actual effective balance separate from how much the bank thinks you have. If you write a check, no matter how long ago, you don't have that money anymore, so you can't spend it.

People often don't bother updating a check register each time they write a check, but if you have any serious threat of running out of funds in your account, you need to take the time to balance it to know how much you have.

(Also a great reason to never use personal checks at all.)

But the lack of any guidance in this regard, while supplying many ways to ask for your "current balance" (a complete fabrication once you've written any checks) is certainly one more way banks do nothing to prevent you from falling into a costly trap. I was lucky enough to receive very careful explanations of how a checking account really works when I was young.

Re: The most profitable source of income for banks? Overdraft fees

#192
post #6

The pain overdraft fees cause poor people is truly hard to comprehend unless you've been there. It's incredibly evil. You've got $16 left for food and then then the Flickr account you forgot to cancel gets charged to your account, putting your balance at -$9. Now you have to pay $35/day until you get enough money to cover the overdraft fees. You end up paying $100+ for a $9 forced loan. The bank could have just decli…

There are a couple of times in my life when I was quite poor (for someone living in a G8 country...) The biggest thing I learned was to use cash. Cash is awesome because you can see how much you have and you can't spend more than you have. Even now that I am relatively well off, I have my habitual routine of getting cash at the beginning of the week and spending only that for the week. In fact, I make sure that there…

> The last time I tried to rent a room at a hotel in Canada, they would not accept cash -- credit card only.

In Switzerland one must - by law - accept cash as payment. Is this different in Canada?

Re: The most profitable source of income for banks? Overdraft fees

#193
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt very much that they care enough to tell themselves anything, and I'm sure they don't lose any sleep over it. You're making this way too personal; they just want money. They don't care if you learned a lesson, if you're rich or poor, if you're a taker or a maker, or if you feel grateful or hateful. They care about their $50, because those fees are profits and profits keep them in the corner office where they c…

I assure you that a $37B (almost all of which is margin) LOB is quite sufficient cause for any number of bankers to lose sleep over. RTFA.

I did read it. I have no doubt they care a great deal about the $37B. I don't think they care in the slightest whether anyone likes their fees or feels harmed by them, and I certainly don't believe they're losing sleep over that. No doubt if one fee is regulated away, they'll simply replace it with another as they have many times before. RTFC.

Re: The most profitable source of income for banks? Overdraft fees

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Civil forfeiture laws in the US. I don't feel safe carrying a reasonable amount of cash. Here the police can just rob me, and now I'm guilty until proven innocent. In DC it costs up to $2500 for the right to challenge a police seizure in court, it's complex, expensive and it can take years.

You are way more likely to get stuck up by a mugger (aka the real cash risk). But 2500 is insane. Is it really that much? Or does that include attorneys fees.

>You are way more likely to get stuck up by a mugger (aka the real cash risk).

Can you provide citations? Thanks!

Re: The most profitable source of income for banks? Overdraft fees

#195
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish USAA would open their net a little bit to extended families. My brother is a doctor in the US Navy, but that supposedly wasn't 'close' enough of a family relation for me to qualify to do business with them.

Why do you think it should be?

USAA provides unrivaled quality customer service. I would love to be their customer primarily for that reason.

Re: The most profitable source of income for banks? Overdraft fees

#196
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically, the cash is guilty not you.

I guess if cash is speech then cash can be a person too. Can I send my cash to jury duty? :)

I think that we can skip the middle layer wetware and just elect cash president. With the (multi) billion campaign season that comes - who is in charge will be just a formality.

Side note - how amazingly high ROI you got with donations to politicians - for a couple of hundred of million - you get people that oversee and direct the 3-4 trillion dollar federal budget (scale to state level too).

Re: The most profitable source of income for banks? Overdraft fees

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're obnoxious, but you're right. I've suffered more than my fair share of overdraft fees, and every one of them was my own fault. It didn't help that my bank's online banking system was a filthy liar with a long-standing bug that caused it to display an incorrect balance (for up to a day or more) when there was an incoming transaction that wasn't pre-auth or posted -- but ultimately that just meant that I had to s…

Oh please. Everyone should be more diligent about their finances. The difference is that someone with money says "oh damn it, I spent too much. I should buy less stuff next week" and someone without much money gets an overdraft fee. Maybe the problem with the current system isn't poor people, the problem is just people. It's just that some people don't have any sort of margin of error, so we shouldn't tilt the scales…

Fantastic, I agree with everything you said and you didn't disagree with anything I said.

Re: The most profitable source of income for banks? Overdraft fees

#198

We could read 100 sob stories, or we could recognize that every single overdraft (other than errors and fraud, which do happen but are rare and these days invariably corrected) is voluntary . Yes, banks will make money any way that they can. Yes, they will happily take your last dollar, or even dollars you don't have and never will. No, they do not give one flying fucking rat's ass about you, your sister, or the home…

I think there's an aspect of morality that you're missing. There comes a moment when taking advantage of someone's lack of foresight, lack of intelligence, and/or carelessness becomes immoral.

I'm not sure where exactly that line lies, but I think I have a good staring place:

If you've created a system that takes someone's money -- even when that transaction was done with the person's prior permission in some way -- and that person says "Woah, wait a minute, this isn't what I thought I signed up for," that's a hint that you might be on the wrong side of that line.

If millions of people have that reaction, and legislators start making public inquiries into what you're up to, that's a REALLY good sign that you might be on the wrong side of the line.

Re: The most profitable source of income for banks? Overdraft fees

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once had a bank account with $100 in it. I went travelling and didn't access the account for a long time. Eventually, I returned back and found that they had sent me a letter saying that they had close my account for inactivity. The fee for closing the account was $120, which put the account at -$20. They were further charging me a $75 overdraft fee and informed me that my account was in arrears for $95 dollars. I…

Did failing to pay up not put you in the bad graces of ChexSystems? Did it affect your ability to open other accounts later on?

I think I got lucky. This was a good 30 years ago, so my memory is a bit hazy, but I think what happened was that they deactivated my account, which incurred the charge. Since I didn't technically have an account any more, they couldn't do anything. I suspect that they weren't supposed to actually deactivate the account completely and screwed up. Back then banking systems were a lot less computerised so I think there were probably lots of errors.

Re: The most profitable source of income for banks? Overdraft fees

#200
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All true, but you can't regulate away bad decisions. By attempting to do so you just make the next scheme even more disgusting.

Challenge accepted. I am going to regulate this problem away. New proposed regulation: 1. Banks must make rejection of a charge, rather than overdrafting, the default. 2. When overdrafting is enabled, cap the fees at some amount (say, $5), and also cap the amount the account can be overdrafted at, say, $50. Looks like a pretty disgusting scheme to me. /sarcasm

Funnily, that's how it works in Europe. Or at least anywhere in Europe that I've had an account.
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