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Trucks Are Killing Us

nytimes.com

231–240 of 248 posts

Re: Trucks Are Killing Us

#231
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A toll for semis on the highway could be a good start. It would at least let them pay for the damage they cause. Weigh stations are already in place which should make tolling pretty simple to enact and it could even be variable based on the size of the truck / weight of the load.

The motor-fuels tax is proportional to the usage (until we have electric trucks, anyway) The problem is 20-25% of it is being redirected into the general fund. That's money that could be used to repair crumbling roads and decaying bridges but is going to pork-barrel projects.

Proportional to usage, yes, but not proportional to the damage caused by weight, which goes up proportional to the 4th power of the weight.

Re: Trucks Are Killing Us

#232
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you can answer a question I've been wondering about: what valuable things do truck drivers do besides driving trucks? There's a lot of hype around self-driving trucks these days. But there's this common tendency to assume that if you can replace the visible part of a job with technology, then those jobs are doomed. The classic example for me is a restaurant replacing waitstaff with computers screens so that peo…

When automation is not complete, humans can hang around for a bit longer, but there will still be fewer of them than before. If all restaurants did was automate order-taking and paying (some are painfully close to this already with on-table tablets that it's actually annoying they haven't already), they just need a human who doesn't speak to the customers to make the food, deliver the requests, and clean up. Maybe a…

"In the future factories will only have 2 employees: a man and a dog. The man's job will be to feed the dog, while the dog's job will be to bite the man if he dares to touch the controls."

Re: Trucks Are Killing Us

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hopefully the various interested lobbies don't try to put too many artificial barriers in the way of self driving trucks becoming a reality. I just don't see this happening. A qualified truck driver costs a trucking company upwards of $30K/year in salary alone. The cost of running a truck capable of driving itself even partially is obviously going to be higher, but at $30K/year + other human-related expenses, it wi…

...high up-front cost and low long-term cost: the ideal conditions for... ...financing? An industry as well-understood and predictable as trucking will not want for lenders.

Financing is not an answer to this problem.

1. Banks may not choose to finance small businesses at all, because they can finance bigger businesses which are a lower risk.

2. If banks do finance small businesses, they charge them higher interest rates than a larger business, again, because a larger, more established business is lower risk. A small business that has to finance at a higher interest rate will have to make larger gross profits to pay their financing costs.

3. Larger businesses may have enough cash on hand that they don't require financing at all, which makes it even harder for small businesses to compete.

I wasn't ignoring financing when I said that high up-front costs and low long-term costs create the ideal conditions for large businesses to drive out small businesses. Financing simply doesn't solve this problem.

Re: Trucks Are Killing Us

#234
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drivers are frequently the ones complaining about the hours-of-service regulations. They get paid by the mile but many of their working hours are non-driving, so more hours on the road is more money. Drivers unionizing (That would be the Teamsters, right?) to demand fewer hours seems roughly as likely as programmers unionizing to demand something better than their 80-hour weeks.

Would an awareness campaign about the dangers of drowsy driving help? As for unionizing, why mention Teamsters? Just have each companies employees get together and negotiate with management. (Yes, I'm being purposefully naive. Even if this really won't work, it should still be tried first.)

> (Yes, I'm being purposefully naive. Even if this really won't work, it should still be tried first.)

Why should it be tried first? This kind of experimentation takes decades and meanwhile people are dying. How many times do we have to try waiting for corporations to do the right thing before we acknowledge that corporations are amoral and aren't going to do the right thing? How many unions do we have to try before we see that they don't really promote progress?

Re: Trucks Are Killing Us

#235
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That said, I don't think we need the government to do anything. I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion looking at this data. > Drivers can unionize and demand better hours. Insurance companies can require collision avoidance tech be installed. Etc. Many things can happen, but they aren't happening, so...

> I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion looking at this data. What data? The article is an opinion piece, not a data analysis. > Many things can happen, but they aren't happening, so... Aren't they? The opinion doesn't say anything about private efforts to fix things. It focuses on government regulations. It doesn't indicate if truckers have made efforts to get better hours, or companies efforts to make things…

> What data? The article is an opinion piece, not a data analysis.

Ugh. Did you even read it?

"More people will be killed in traffic accidents involving large trucks this year than have died in all of the domestic commercial airline crashes over the past 45 years, if past trends hold true."

"In recent months, Congress has pursued a number of steps to roll back safety improvements ordered by federal regulators. It has pushed to allow truck drivers to work 82 hours a week, up from the current 70 hours over eight days, by eliminating the requirement that drivers take a two-day rest break each week; discouraged the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration from investing in wireless technology designed to improve the monitoring of drivers and their vehicles; and signaled its willingness to allow longer and heavier trucks despite widespread public opposition. Congress also wants to lower the minimum age for drivers of large trucks that are allowed to travel from state to state to 18, from 21."

"The death toll in truck-involved crashes rose 17 percent from 2009 to 2013. Fatalities in truck-involved crashes have risen four years in a row, reaching 3,964 in 2013, the latest data available. Those crashes are killing not only car drivers but also, during 2013 alone, 586 people who were truck drivers or passengers."

"And while a more than 3 percent drop in car deaths over the same period was largely accomplished by technological improvements like airbags, electronic stability control and anti-lock brakes, the trucking industry has resisted most of those safety devices. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates the annual cost to the economy of truck and bus crashes to be $99 billion."

There's plenty of data in there.

> The opinion doesn't say anything about private efforts to fix things.

"And while a more than 3 percent drop in car deaths over the same period was largely accomplished by technological improvements like airbags, electronic stability control and anti-lock brakes, the trucking industry has resisted most of those safety devices."

"Most automakers now include or offer anti-lock brakes, electronic stability control, airbags and collision-avoidance devices in their vehicles, and the technology is included in many of the heavy trucks sold in Europe. But the United States trucking industry has largely avoided using the safety technologies available for vehicles sold here, because of their cost."

"The trucking industry, through its chief trade group, the American Trucking Associations, insists that it needs longer work weeks and bigger vehicles so that more trucks will not be needed on the road, which it says could result in more accidents."

> Now, if that stuff has been tried, and failed, then what have states done? Why do we have to go directly to Federal level?

Because the interstates are exactly that: inster-state. The trucking industry isn't a problem that affects just a few states. This is clearly not a problem that will be solved by fighting it out individually in each state individually.

> Ultimately, we should never give more power to one group unless it really is the only way to do what is needed.

I see you've decided to exclude the trucking industry, which holds all the cards in this situation, from your definition of "group".

> No matter how much we trust that group.

I don't trust the trucking industry at all.

> Thus, whenever someone suggests new regulations, I always question if they are really needed. Especially when we're talking about the USA Federal Government.

It appears that you only question giving a group more power when that group is the US Federal Government. Every solution you've suggested trying gives a group more power.

Let's stop pretending this is about logic or data and recognize that you'll just say whatever to push your anti-government ideology.

Re: Trucks Are Killing Us

#236
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article bothered me because of the presumption that the author made about hours of service, and as a former driver, in my opinion the issue is not the HOS (hours of service) rules, its the way companies, especially many smaller ones dispatch their drivers - you can be expected to go from working days, to working nights instantly, and it can really fuck hardcore with your sleep schedule - so while you can be compl…

" I personally wouldn't want to drive a truck with collision avoidance stuff, not unless I had a ton of time to spend with it to understand what it does in an activated situation... " I have no solid information about this, but I recently heard a driver complaining about some form of collision avoidance technology that had a tendency to malfunction on a loaded vehicle and was responsible for "putting trucks is the di…

I don't - I've been out of the industry for a while now. But, I can tell you, the vehicle dynamics of a large truck are significantly different than a car, and in many situations such an unexpected change could cause an accident.

With a car, you're only concerned about keeping one braking system in repair, when hauling a trailer you get a roll of the die every time you pick up a new trailer, some of them track straight, some of them don't - some of them brake asymmetrically side to side too.

Air Brakes are also a completely different dynamic then hydraulic brakes used in cars, in a way I can't even reasonably explain, its just something you need to experience - but to give you a clue, you don't feel brake fade as a difference in pedal back pressure, your brakes just don't work as well.

Consider this - the old adage when driving a combined tractor trailer is - "you're driving the trailer, not the truck"

Re: Trucks Are Killing Us

#237
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For trips over 150-600 miles (depending on the region), Rail is absolutely the way to go - the issue with rail in say a SEA to PDX (or for that matter a YVR to PDX) trip is the load/unload times at each end, which can add up to more than the total transit time for the freight movement.

Specialized cranes should make this last some seconds per container. http://www.konecranesusa.com/industries/intermodal-and-rail

I believe that they use this, but that only accounts for the movement, not, switching the traincars onto the correct siding, locating a chassis, staging it, moving the chassis/container to a parking area, and the coordinating it to be picked up by a tractor. It's more than just the load/unload.

Re: Trucks Are Killing Us

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...high up-front cost and low long-term cost: the ideal conditions for... ...financing? An industry as well-understood and predictable as trucking will not want for lenders.

Financing is not an answer to this problem. 1. Banks may not choose to finance small businesses at all, because they can finance bigger businesses which are a lower risk. 2. If banks do finance small businesses, they charge them higher interest rates than a larger business, again, because a larger, more established business is lower risk. A small business that has to finance at a higher interest rate will have to mak…

If you're talking about the general problem, that society is bent in many different ways to favor large firms managed by professional executives and owned by clueless investors, then yes, I agree that financing is not the solution. At times I despair that any solution short of large-scale violence and reappropriation may be found. On the more particular issue of capital goods requiring up-front investment, don't lose hope. This phenomenon has inhered in the capitalist system for centuries, and certainly longer than "banks" as such have. Over that whole time, however, small nimble innovative firms have regularly thrived and even grown large, lax, and lethargic themselves.

Part of the problem is the assumption that banks control all business lending. (They love that otherwise smart people assume so!) I know an investor who is currently dissatisfied with real estate opportunities available to occupy his considerable wealth. For several years he has been financing, among other things, consumer purchase of water softeners. He actually has to hire someone to examine long lists of loans of several hundred to a thousand dollars! He would love to be able to help a few firms purchase a dozen self-driving tractors apiece, once insurers figure out how it will work.

Various entities have nibbled at the margins of "bank" business for decades now. This is not a phenomenon that will cease before banks themselves do. They only exist because we believe they must.

Re: Trucks Are Killing Us

#239
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.bgiworldwide.com/domestic-shipping/rail says "Typical transit time for coast-to-coast delivery is 7 to 10 days." Figuring 44 hours to drive across the country (NYC to SF), and a maximum of 11 hours long-haul driving per day, gives 4 days. That's for a single driver; a team with a sleeper can go further. Call it 2x faster with a truck. Amazon has fulfillment locations all around the US, so even with ground-…

The fulfillment locations also have to be supplied somehow.

Certainly, but that's different topic than the same-day or overnight shipping that you were asking about, no?

Currently those fulfillment centers only use trucks. (I spot checked a few Amazon fulfillment areal photographs on Google Maps.) They would have to be relocated on rail lines, or lines moved to them. There would need to be about 4x more centers, since trucks are about 2x faster. Probably more like 6x more, since trucks and roads go places that trains can't get to because of grade limitations.

Only you know what 'realistic' means to you. We know it's possible to have a rail system that reaches most towns in the US - that's what we had until the automobile. Many of the right-of-ways still exist, but they were also designed for slower, lighter trains than we have now. And for days with more canned and pickled goods that weren't so time sensitive.

Trains don't scale down. Consider a small town grocery store. Currently it will get several different trucks making deliveries - soda, beer, fruit and veg, etc. These make deliveries to many different stores in the area. How does it work if we switch to delivery by rail? Does the train drop off a trailer bundled with all of the daily deliveries? If so, how are thing kept cool that need to be cool? Or are multiple trailers dropped off, and if so, where are they stored and how much room is needed? Does the store need to be next to the tracks?

Re: Trucks Are Killing Us

#240
post #15

As a cyclist I feel the same way about cars in general, and the stats are similar.

Actually, I don't think the statistics are remotely similar (at least in the UK). In London, for instance, every single cyclist death in 2015 has been due to the cyclist getting crushed by a truck. [1] I don't know about the US, but I suspect the statistics would be similar, at least in cities. [1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/active/recreational-cycling/1...

Interesting, are they outright deaths tho? As far as I'm aware the most common result of car/bicycle collision is not death but some kind of head trauma for the cyclist, often resulting in brain damage.
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