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Trucks Are Killing Us

nytimes.com

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Re: Trucks Are Killing Us

#51

Post by BufordTJustice »

rcarrigan87 wrote: post #48

I'm all for the safety arguments being made by the author but he does paint the trucking industry as this huge money making business when that really isn't the case. Trucking is a very low margin business. These guys live and die based on controlling costs. It's an industry where innovation is very hard because you really need to justify every dollar spent on R&D. Quoting $700B total industry revenue and saying there…

I second this. The working hours and toll sitting in a tractor like that all day are bad, but if you do things like cut hours for drivers, especially the drivers that aren't owner-operators, and continue them at the same pay, you unfortunately will push a huge contingent of people further out into the margins. I am all for increased safety, and very much think the drivers are on the road way too much, but I fear additional safety or hours cuts will be disproportionately borne by the drivers, who really usually can't afford it anyways. Apparently truck driving is a very common job to work too[1].

[1] - http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/02/05/382664837/map-t...

Re: Trucks Are Killing Us

#52

Post by bro-stick »

Alex3917 wrote: post #27
ajmurmann wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm carefully optimistic since this would be in there interest of the trucking industry and they already seem to be succeeding at pushing laws through that are bad for the drivers. I would love a system where the trucks get driven to a lot outside of the city where they get set on a automatic course to the equivalent lot at the destination. During transit no person is onboard at all. At the destination lot a human en…

> I'm carefully optimistic since this would be in there interest of the trucking industry How would self-driving trucks help the trucking industry? It seems like driverless technology will only make the business even more commoditized than it already is, and the only ones that make any money will be the one or two companies with the iPhone apps where you push the button to get your truck.

"Industry" is both ambiguous and nebulous. It would seem to help the stakeholders whom depend on trucking, perhaps the fleets of trucks and most definitely not the drivers. There are far too many truckers' jobs at risk to retrain and place in nonexistent "freeing" jobs that just don't exist. Loads of unemployed people with no job prospects to feed their families would be an idiotic situation rife with discontent bordering on insurrection.

Re: Trucks Are Killing Us

#53

Post by joaq »

I can't think of many worse jobs than truck driving. Long hours, low pay, threat to lose your job from self-driving cars, high risk... These guys deserve a higher salary and they should start looking for something else to do IMHO.

Re: Trucks Are Killing Us

#54

Post by joesmo »

A_COMPUTER wrote: post #50
joesmo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over 90% of accidents are caused by human error. That doesn't mean it's necessarily the truck driver's fault, as there are other drivers on the road. But if it isn't his fault, it's the fault of another driver. Considering how long truck drivers drive for and in what conditions, I wouldn't be surprised if much of that 90% is actually attributed to the truck drivers themselves instead of other drivers.

Consider also though that truck drivers are the most thoroughly and professionally trained and strictly licensed drivers on the roads.

Considered, however that makes no difference when they've been up 12-36 hours driving. At that point, someone slightly drunk is a better driver.

Re: Trucks Are Killing Us

#55

Post by Aloha »

macNchz wrote: post #3

Self-driving trucks seem to have such great promise to improve the safety and efficiency of the trucking industry and our highways in general. Even if they're only self-driving during the long haul sections and human drivers take over for local deliveries it would make a huge difference. Hopefully the various interested lobbies don't try to put too many artificial barriers in the way of self driving trucks becoming a…

I'm a former over the road truck driver who hauled truckload freight.

I disagree profoundly that self driving trucks are the future, the future is multimodal transport, even now a significant proportion of long haul (greater than 3-600 miles) is already on the rail, either in the form of a container or piggyback.

The issue that keeps the remaining long haul (greater than 600 miles) on the road (vs rail) is timing, when you put something on the rail, you loose a day or so at one end in loading/classifying and another in classifying/unloading. That time loss is something that in all but a few situations can be accommodated for by extra planning - but it requires the planning and consent of the shipper and consignee to do so - the trucking and rail companies are already on board as shipping by rail is much cheaper/easier.

For LTL companies, most of their drivers only run from terminal to terminal, and the distance driven and time spent is much much lower, but even with them, a crossdock transload facility where one side is a truck dock, and the other is a railcar could for example cut down on some logistics pain - but it still would incur additional delay due to the machinations required by the railroad to switch and deliver cars in their network.

Another complicating factor is reefers, right now each refer either has a generator attached (for containers) to it powered by diesel fuel, or has a diesel powered refrigeration unit on the trailer - this for the rail could be replaced by freight trains with HEP (head end power) to power the refrigeration units - but to do so requires a sizable investment by everyone involved (rail cars that support such a system, cans and trailers that support such a system, and transit yards that can supply the power to keep everything cold)

Even with the challenges, in 20-30 years, I'd expect only 10% of truckload miles to be actually hauled end to end by a truck, the rest of it should go on the rail, then be carried the proverbial last mile (in reality couple hundred miles) by a truck.

As a former driver, in my opinion the issue is not the HOS (hours of service) rules, its the way companies, especially many smaller ones dispatch their drivers - you can be expected to go from working days, to working nights instantly, and it can really fuck hardcore with your sleep schedule.

Re: Trucks Are Killing Us

#56

Post by futhey »

rcarrigan87 wrote: post #48

I'm all for the safety arguments being made by the author but he does paint the trucking industry as this huge money making business when that really isn't the case. Trucking is a very low margin business. These guys live and die based on controlling costs. It's an industry where innovation is very hard because you really need to justify every dollar spent on R&D. Quoting $700B total industry revenue and saying there…

As someone who's worked inside the industry, the economics of being a trucker push drivers to bend or break the rules to make ends meet. Wages have been depressed over the last three decades and have seen a drop in real wages in many segments of the trucking industry. I saw many drivers keeping multiple log books, skipping or cutting-short rest breaks.

Professional drivers can and do operate safely. But with some carriers paying as little as 20 cents per mile, you can do the math and figure out what a typical work-week looks like if you want to eek out a very meager living as a trucker today.

Re: Trucks Are Killing Us

#57

Post by bro-stick »

gamerdonkey wrote: post #24
ajmurmann wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm carefully optimistic since this would be in there interest of the trucking industry and they already seem to be succeeding at pushing laws through that are bad for the drivers. I would love a system where the trucks get driven to a lot outside of the city where they get set on a automatic course to the equivalent lot at the destination. During transit no person is onboard at all. At the destination lot a human en…

This system sounds an awful lot like the freight rail system. That seems like it would be easier to automate, too.

Rio Tinto is replacing some of its engineers with ATC.

Re: Trucks Are Killing Us

#58

Post by copsarebastards »

jerrac wrote: post #39

Driving while tired can be as dangerous as driving drunk. The occasional 14hr drive isn't horrible, but if you do that several days in a row, you're going to be really tired. So limiting the hours per day a truck driver drives seems like a good idea. As does "shift" driving. Collision avoidance tech also seems like a good idea. That said, I don't think we need the government to do anything. Drivers can unionize and d…

> That said, I don't think we need the government to do anything.

I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion looking at this data.

> Drivers can unionize and demand better hours. Insurance companies can require collision avoidance tech be installed. Etc.

Many things can happen, but they aren't happening, so...

Re: Trucks Are Killing Us

#59

Post by ZoeZoeBee »

robbrown451 wrote: post #45
notNow wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that the trucking industry is one of the biggest employers in the US. Are you OK with devastating these people's lives for extra efficiency promised safety? Before we push for more automation and job losses, we need to revamp the whole political/economic/social system to ensure a more egalitarian income distribution since the vast majority of the Earth's population are proletariat who exchange their labor in…

If everything was going to be automated all at once, this "devastation" might be the case. But it won't happen all at once, it happens over the course of a decade or two. In almost every case in history, automation has increased jobs and increased the quality of life. Your post reminds me of this story: "Prof. Friedman visited China in the early 1960s and was taken by a government official to see a public works proje…

History is what it is when it comes to changes in technology. However there have been moments in history which were R3voltionary, where a great deal of people were no longer necessary and that change came with periods of upheaval

Re: Trucks Are Killing Us

#60

Post by Aloha »

rcarrigan87 wrote: post #48

I'm all for the safety arguments being made by the author but he does paint the trucking industry as this huge money making business when that really isn't the case. Trucking is a very low margin business. These guys live and die based on controlling costs. It's an industry where innovation is very hard because you really need to justify every dollar spent on R&D. Quoting $700B total industry revenue and saying there…

The article bothered me because of the presumption that the author made about hours of service, and as a former driver, in my opinion the issue is not the HOS (hours of service) rules, its the way companies, especially many smaller ones dispatch their drivers - you can be expected to go from working days, to working nights instantly, and it can really fuck hardcore with your sleep schedule - so while you can be compliant with the HOS, you've still not slept any - because you just spent 4 days working days, and now you're expected to pick up a shipment at 11pm and run with it until out of hours for the day.. not practical or safe.

The other thing that irritated me was the presumption that trucks have no safety hardware - I personally wouldn't want to drive a truck with collision avoidance stuff, not unless I had a ton of time to spend with it to understand what it does in an activated situation - that said, most trucks do have ABS, airbags are meaningless in a truck, you're so much larger than the other vehicles that a driver doesn't need airbags to stay safe, and airbags do nothing to enhance the other drivers safety, they just add cost for no real benefit.

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