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Intuit Will Sell Off Quicken

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Re: Intuit Will Sell Off Quicken

#41

Post by jerrac »

guelo wrote: post #37
tptacek wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there anyone on this thread that would disagree with that? Hurting people to make a political point is immoral. I don't think anyone is advocating for that.

Huh? That is exactly what these conservatives are advocating. Make tax filing maximally painful to make a political point

If by painful, you mean making sure everyone knows exactly how much money they are paying in taxes, then yes, Conservatives want that.

If you mean we want to make it hard to file taxes, as in make it complicated to figure out your tax return, and so on, then I'll have to ask where you got that idea. Most of the tax reform rhetoric I've seen is based on making it simpler to pay taxes, while at the same time more obvious how much you are paying.

Re: Intuit Will Sell Off Quicken

#43

Post by protomyth »

glesica wrote: post #39
protomyth wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is real conservative opposition to return-free filing. For instance, conservatives in general think the tax code is both too complex and too onerous. In a return-free system, citizens are given a summarized bill and encouraged not to consider the line items. The concern is that the bill is unfair, and the less citizens have it shoved in their face, the less likely we are to get a fairer tax code. I'm a conser…

> Even showing no understanding of basic math when deduction + flat rate taxes are suggested. As a left-winger, my views and yours probably aren't that far off. I would be fine with a flat tax (that was actually collected from everyone) and a large deductible. Even more so if it was coupled with a meaningful basic income guarantee. The problem is that I don't actually believe politicians when they say that is what th…

> the modern GOP actually wants a regressive system where the rich pay almost nothing and there is no deductible because the poor need to pay their "fair share"

None of the information I've seen posted for alternate tax systems by conservatives / GOP have ever had anything like that. That is something I hear a lot from papers that lean left, but is not the reality of any of the plans. Even the sales tax-based plans take great pains to make it easy on lower income folks. I just see it as more bad math.

I don't believe politicians will change the tax system because it is a powerful tool to impose their will and gain campaign contributions. Its a basic self-interest thing which explains the majority of politics.

Re: Intuit Will Sell Off Quicken

#44

Post by jerrac »

tptacek wrote: post #7
sschueller wrote: post #2

Looks like they are not worried about taxes ever becoming simpler. Intuit has spent about $11.5 million on federal lobbying in the past few years to kill bills that would have simplified taxes. [1] [1] http://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-maker-of-turbotax-...

If $2.3MM/yr over 5 years is enough to reshape the trajectory of fundamental laws in this country, why aren't people just Kickstarter-ing cannabis decriminalization, marriage equality, and copyright law changes? My point is: that's not a lot of money. Not that I think you can get important changes done for $2.3MM. There is real conservative opposition to return-free filing. For instance, conservatives in general thin…

Yes, from [1], I would never support return free filing. The tax code is far too complicated, and the IRS far too inept for me to trust that they would not screw my taxes up.

That said, if we went to a flat tax, or a national sales tax, or something else that drastically simplifies the tax code, then the issue would be moot. And most of those simplifications would be supported by Conservatives. (Note, I mean real Conservatives, many of the politicians who say they are conservative really aren't.)

[1]http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/improve/return-...

Re: Intuit Will Sell Off Quicken

#45

Post by bitwarrior »

tptacek wrote: post #7
sschueller wrote: post #2

Looks like they are not worried about taxes ever becoming simpler. Intuit has spent about $11.5 million on federal lobbying in the past few years to kill bills that would have simplified taxes. [1] [1] http://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-maker-of-turbotax-...

If $2.3MM/yr over 5 years is enough to reshape the trajectory of fundamental laws in this country, why aren't people just Kickstarter-ing cannabis decriminalization, marriage equality, and copyright law changes? My point is: that's not a lot of money. Not that I think you can get important changes done for $2.3MM. There is real conservative opposition to return-free filing. For instance, conservatives in general thin…

Dan Carlin in his Common Sense podcast aired the episode [Kickstarting the Revolution](http://www.dancarlin.com/product/common-sense-282-kickstarti...) where he suggests that, being that the game is what it is (regarding campaign financing, lobbying and other such means of influencing political outcomes and the use of money), while we may not agree with the game, we should at least, as citizens, play the game.

If people have donated over $65 million to get Star Citizen developed, one would imagine the public could easily finance...broader causes. And considering $2.3 million over 5 years is enough to influence lawmakers to continually reject tax code reform, it seems getting something passed would be less costly and a one-time affair.

I almost like to imagine a political party or super pac with public causes (you name it) itemized its willing to support, with a donation page for each, taking that money and doing the very same thing corporations do, but effectively on behalf of citizens.

Re: Intuit Will Sell Off Quicken

#46

Post by jerrac »

cdcarter wrote: post #38
pgrote wrote: post #13

What is a good, active cloud based personal finance software service? The ones I have come across look ok, but aren't actively developed.

YNAB has dropbox synch and it's ideal.

YNAB is definitely a good product. I use it, and got my brother and parents to use it as well.

My only complaint is that I'd rather not rely on a third party like dropbox for sync, and I'd like a Linux version.

Re: Intuit Will Sell Off Quicken

#47

Post by tptacek »

guelo wrote: post #37
tptacek wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there anyone on this thread that would disagree with that? Hurting people to make a political point is immoral. I don't think anyone is advocating for that.

Huh? That is exactly what these conservatives are advocating. Make tax filing maximally painful to make a political point

I'm not a conservative ("Do what is best for the public school system shalt be the whole of the law" comes close to what I believe), and I do not believe yours is a remotely reasonable summary of what conservatives believe, let alone a charitable one.

I feel comfortable at this point saying directly: you have misunderstood the point Patrick was trying to make.

Re: Intuit Will Sell Off Quicken

#48

Post by bradleyjg »

jerrac wrote: post #44
tptacek wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If $2.3MM/yr over 5 years is enough to reshape the trajectory of fundamental laws in this country, why aren't people just Kickstarter-ing cannabis decriminalization, marriage equality, and copyright law changes? My point is: that's not a lot of money. Not that I think you can get important changes done for $2.3MM. There is real conservative opposition to return-free filing. For instance, conservatives in general thin…

Yes, from [1], I would never support return free filing. The tax code is far too complicated, and the IRS far too inept for me to trust that they would not screw my taxes up. That said, if we went to a flat tax, or a national sales tax, or something else that drastically simplifies the tax code, then the issue would be moot. And most of those simplifications would be supported by Conservatives. (Note, I mean real Con…

If "flat tax" only means go to a single income bracket and percentage, it would not simplify the tax code much at all. The progressive part of tax code involves a single lookup at the end.

The complexity exists almost entirely in tax expenditures -- deductions, exclusions, credits, etc., etc., etc.

I don't know what "real Conservatives" think, but in polling many tax expenditures do very well. For example, 68% of Republicans, 63% of Democrats, and 58% of Independents oppose it eliminating the home mortgage interest deduction. (http://www.scribd.com/doc/117298635/CBS-News-Poll-Fiscal-Cli... Q47)

Re: Intuit Will Sell Off Quicken

#49

Post by tptacek »

seiji wrote: post #35
tptacek wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If $2.3MM/yr over 5 years is enough to reshape the trajectory of fundamental laws in this country, why aren't people just Kickstarter-ing cannabis decriminalization, marriage equality, and copyright law changes? My point is: that's not a lot of money. Not that I think you can get important changes done for $2.3MM. There is real conservative opposition to return-free filing. For instance, conservatives in general thin…

My point is: that's not a lot of money. It's called the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tullock_paradox — "the low costs of rent-seeking relative to the gains from rent-seeking." Influencing individuals is relatively cheap. You just have to overwhelm them. Our laws are made by a limited group of individuals. Ergo, influencing laws is relatively cheap once you've got a few million dollars to burn and can gain billions o…

I do not believe that sweeping US federal tax reform is a matter of a few million dollars of lobbying.

I believe that a few million dollars can get you a bunch of state court judges, and even that the state government that can be influenced by lobbying expenditures might be "where all the real governing is happening".

I do not believe the narrative that Intuit's pitiful lobbying expenditure is stunting our tax system.

If the disclosure in ProPublica had been that Intuit was spending 10x, 20x more than that --- and it has the resources to do that --- I'd believe it more. As it stands, the specifics revealed by ProPublica make me less concerned about Intuit's influence.

For what it's worth: I'd like a return-free IRS.

Re: Intuit Will Sell Off Quicken

#50

Post by jerrac »

glesica wrote: post #39
protomyth wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is real conservative opposition to return-free filing. For instance, conservatives in general think the tax code is both too complex and too onerous. In a return-free system, citizens are given a summarized bill and encouraged not to consider the line items. The concern is that the bill is unfair, and the less citizens have it shoved in their face, the less likely we are to get a fairer tax code. I'm a conser…

> Even showing no understanding of basic math when deduction + flat rate taxes are suggested. As a left-winger, my views and yours probably aren't that far off. I would be fine with a flat tax (that was actually collected from everyone) and a large deductible. Even more so if it was coupled with a meaningful basic income guarantee. The problem is that I don't actually believe politicians when they say that is what th…

> ...the poor need to pay their "fair share"

The basic idea is that the Government should treat everyone equally. Treating someone differently because they have a lower income than others is discriminatory. Just as treating someone with a higher income differently is discriminatory.

Plus, as soon as you open the law up to treating people differently based on some arbitrary criteria, you open it up to corruption. A few "bribes" here and there, and suddenly this company is part of a group that gets special treatment. Or this rich person is able to avoid paying extra taxes because of some loophole created because the Government treats some group differently.

Thus, it's not about the "poor" paying their fair share. It's about everyone paying their fair share.

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