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JFK Displays Actual Wait Times Using Beacons That Monitor Mobile Phones

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Re: JFK Displays Actual Wait Times Using Beacons That Monitor Mobile Phones

#41

Post by remarkEon »

smackfu wrote: post #37
gorena wrote: post #2

Serious question: if there is a 16 minute queue for "security", why wouldn't a potential terrorist just wheel up a carry on sized bomb and detonate it in the middle of the "security" line? Is this something that the TSA addresses (I assume not), or do they just ignore the possibility? All they've done is move the soft target further out.

At a lot of more risky countries, they do x-ray / metal detector every passenger at the airport entrance. I assume that's to prevent targeting concentrations of foreign tourists.

This just moves the target from the indoor TSA queue to curbside.

Re: JFK Displays Actual Wait Times Using Beacons That Monitor Mobile Phones

#42

Post by rayiner »

harmegido wrote: post #11
gorena wrote: post #2

Serious question: if there is a 16 minute queue for "security", why wouldn't a potential terrorist just wheel up a carry on sized bomb and detonate it in the middle of the "security" line? Is this something that the TSA addresses (I assume not), or do they just ignore the possibility? All they've done is move the soft target further out.

I think they're concern is not foremost for the safety of the passengers. The main concern is airplanes going into buildings. Of course, this is definitely an example of fighting the last war. On a separate note, the TSA really pisses me off. Consider that UPS saves millions by not taking left turns. Removing or adding very small inefficiencies at a very large scale has tremendous cost implications. I don't think the…

It's not like we didn't have airport security lines before the TSA. And with the new millimeter wave machines I'm not sure if they're appreciably slower than the old metal detector setup. The bottleneck was always putting your luggage through the X-ray, and we've had that for as long as I can remember.

Re: JFK Displays Actual Wait Times Using Beacons That Monitor Mobile Phones

#43

Post by vidarh »

MBlume wrote: post #22
harmegido wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they're concern is not foremost for the safety of the passengers. The main concern is airplanes going into buildings. Of course, this is definitely an example of fighting the last war. On a separate note, the TSA really pisses me off. Consider that UPS saves millions by not taking left turns. Removing or adding very small inefficiencies at a very large scale has tremendous cost implications. I don't think the…

I agree that planes going into buildings is the major security concern, but we fixed it. We've reinforced the cockpit doors and we've taught passengers not to cooperate with hijackers (the latter we managed within hours of the first attack)

> we've taught passengers not to cooperate with hijackers

Have we? Maybe US passengers have been taught that better than elsewhere, but we don't really know due to the lack of hijackings to test that theory.

And internationally, of about a dozen hijackings post 9/11 only two I think have seen the hijacker get subdued by passengers - in one instance probably because there happened to be six police officers aboard; in the other instance it was a lone hijacker with a nail file...

Incidentally, despite 9/11, the odds of surviving a plane hijacking are still very high - the persons running the highest risk of getting killed in a hijacking are the hijackers. As it happens, 9/11 did not result in a string of copycat hijackers - most hijackers appears to still plan to survive the hijacking.

Re: JFK Displays Actual Wait Times Using Beacons That Monitor Mobile Phones

#44

Post by mikeash »

RobotCaleb wrote: post #12

Of what use is this information to the people standing in line? "Oh, it's 30 minutes. I guess I'll hurry."

An indefinite wait is about a million times more frustrating than a wait of known length, by its very nature. So long as the number is reasonably accurate, it's a much nicer experience.

It's extremely practical, too. There is a lot you can do based on that number. For security, if the wait is extremely long and your flight is soon, you can try to plead your case to the security people. They'll often let you jump the line if your flight is departing soon, so yes, you can actually say "I guess I'll hurry." The information is available even if you're not in line, so you can plan accordingly.

For customs, you can't do much about your own situation, but you can tell people who are waiting for you how much longer you expect to be.

Re: JFK Displays Actual Wait Times Using Beacons That Monitor Mobile Phones

#45

Post by forgottenpass »

When a device passes the beacons, its non-personal unique ID—called a MAC address—is recorded, encrypted and time-stamped.

Blip, you make me laugh. You know this will raise privacy concerns and say the sweet nothings that placate the general public, but inspire no confidence in people who know what those words mean.

I'm not here to say that as a JFK traveler I'm unhappy with the privacy considerations. I just want to point out you're pretending your design is good on privacy when simple tweaks would show the security minded you gave half a shit. I don't mind this monitoring if it is limited to the uses described, your maneuvering simply makes me giggle.

A MAC may not be in whatever bucket you're calling "personal" but is certainly more personal than "non-personal" implies. Encryption is effectively a "we're doing it right" buzzword to the general public. What are your authorized uses for the data? What's your KMI? What data minimization techniques are employed? Do you purge old records? Replace the MAC with an identifier that can't be tied back to MAC once the target has left the line? Hash MACs on entry in a way that is both time-costly to bruteforce and results in a different hash every day?

Re: JFK Displays Actual Wait Times Using Beacons That Monitor Mobile Phones

#46

Post by mikeash »

nkassis wrote: post #34
paulsutter wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What gets measured gets fixed. Presumably the TSA managers will be rated based on their wait times, and therefore accountable when they're too lazy to staff the right number of people. Last week I almost missed my flight at Oakland because they had everyone funneled through a single scanner. Two scanners were idle because they were "short staffed". That's not an accident or bad luck. That just means the manager was t…

I wouldn't call the manager lazy. It's more of lacking clear information that they need to make properly informed staffing decisions. I bet they have incentives tied to cost more than wait time. Instead of optimizing for cost and a gut feeling of need to meet a certain service threshold they can now use this data to predict capacity needs more accurately. Hopefully incentives are correctly set so they don't just igno…

My worst airline-related example of this involved a flight from Paris to Philadelphia. It was scheduled to arrive around 4PM. However, the departure was delayed about four hours because the plane was late getting in to Paris, which in turn happened because the plane had mechanical trouble in Philadelphia.

There were a lot of people on this flight who were connecting on to other cities. We landed just barely in time to catch the last flight of the day to many of those cities, but most people had to be rebooked since that wasn't their original flight.

So we get off the plane and about two hundred of us need to be rebooked, and we get to the counter to discover a grand total of three people working there. To process two hundred people. Who all needed fast service. For a problem that anyone could have seen coming literally a day in advance.

A lot of people unnecessarily spent their nights in hotels rather than with their families that night, because nobody looked at what was going on and said, we should bring in some more people for this.

But yes, I'm sure it's all about bad incentives. Whoever takes the hit for overtime staffing doesn't also take a hit for hotel vouchers, even though it probably would have been cheaper overall for the airline to staff up and get people on their flights. (Not to mention the benefit of pleasing your customers.)

Follow the money, and all becomes clear.

Re: JFK Displays Actual Wait Times Using Beacons That Monitor Mobile Phones

#47

Post by dopamean »

rince wrote: post #40
dopamean wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love that feature. It's also incredible to me how many people either ignore it or don't know it's there.

I have never noticed it before Where is the wait time information at Bergstrom?

Sort of at the front of the security line. Right before you get to the area where you load up the conveyor belt. It is visible from the back of the line.

Re: JFK Displays Actual Wait Times Using Beacons That Monitor Mobile Phones

#48

Post by Thriptic »

RobotCaleb wrote: post #12

Of what use is this information to the people standing in line? "Oh, it's 30 minutes. I guess I'll hurry."

Showing people information like this removes uncertainty and makes them feel more calm and in control, even if they can't necessarily act on the information immediately. It promotes the idea that the airport believes that user time is valuable, that the airport cares about performance, and that they are trying to optimize processes when possible and provide useful information. This contrasts strongly with the attitude that one normally associates with airports, which is that the entire travel process is insanely uncertain and no one working there gives a shit about you. This improves both passenger and staff morale (as staff are the obvious targets of undirected passenger anger and frustration) and makes the process feel more seamless.

Re: JFK Displays Actual Wait Times Using Beacons That Monitor Mobile Phones

#49

Post by vidarh »

pyre wrote: post #8
saryant wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sort of like how they take those super-dangerous bottles of water and toiletries and place them in a secure receptacle AKA a trash can.

I thought the idea wasn't that they were volatile on their own, but components that could be assembled into a bomb once on-plane.

That might have helped if they actually caught fluids in the carry on. In my experience (accidentally left bottles in carry-on several times; always found out myself after passing through security with no problems) they don't seem to do that.

Re: JFK Displays Actual Wait Times Using Beacons That Monitor Mobile Phones

#50

Post by lojack »

MBlume wrote: post #22
harmegido wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they're concern is not foremost for the safety of the passengers. The main concern is airplanes going into buildings. Of course, this is definitely an example of fighting the last war. On a separate note, the TSA really pisses me off. Consider that UPS saves millions by not taking left turns. Removing or adding very small inefficiencies at a very large scale has tremendous cost implications. I don't think the…

I agree that planes going into buildings is the major security concern, but we fixed it. We've reinforced the cockpit doors and we've taught passengers not to cooperate with hijackers (the latter we managed within hours of the first attack)

While all of this helps, it's hard to say that it fixed the issue. As far as I'm aware, for US based flights, there have been a few bombing attempts, but no hijacking attempt since 9/11. It's hard to say if this is a result of these security measures, the TSA security, or just the fact that hijackings aren't that common.
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