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Lovin' their elevator: why Germans are loopy about paternosters

theguardian.com

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Re: Lovin' their elevator: why Germans are loopy about paternosters

#41

Post by Asbostos »

3pt14159 wrote: post #36
rffn wrote: post #9

The article misses important points about the reason for the outcry on the proposed law. Many people here are fed up with the overregulating nanny state with more and more unnecessary rules imposed by inept control freaks like Andrea Nahles. She also seems to have difficulties with judging the impact of her ideas. There are now way too many similar the her in today's politics (throughout most of the political parties…

How do people in wheel chairs and crutches reach different floors? If there is a handicapped or moving elevator as well, and if there is an auto-stop mechanism if someone's foot is stuck between lift and ceiling, then I see no reason why these shouldn't be in every office building or condo. They are clearly way more time efficient.

I don't think they're clearly more efficient. For a tall enough building, or low enough traffic, what you save in waiting time, you'd lose in the slower travelling speed.

Re: Lovin' their elevator: why Germans are loopy about paternosters

#42

Post by Asbostos »

furyg3 wrote: post #7

It seems like there should be a way to build these in a safe way. For example, angling the ceiling of the compartment as well as where the ceiling of the building meets the compartment should offer quite a lot more safety: http://i.imgur.com/CJbf1oq.png You could also imagine 'sprung' walls between the compartments that prevent limbs/feet from getting squashed. As for accessibility for disabled persons, I see no reas…

You could also have electrical switches. Ordinary lifts already have a risk of this and already protect against it electrically. Next time you're in a lift, try pulling the doors open while it's moving. In my experience, you can fairly easily open them and the car comes to a sudden stop before you have a chance to poke your leg out and get it chopped off.

Re: Lovin' their elevator: why Germans are loopy about paternosters

#43

Post by nemo44x »

einrealist wrote: post #5
KuchenKerze wrote: post #3

Sadly they are slowly disappearing. Mainly because of safety reasons, they are considered dangerous.

Security is not the main issue. The main issue is accessibility. A disabled person or a person with a baby carriage cannot use them. It becomes a security issue when they do. 100 years ago, accessibility was not an issue.

It isn't much different than an escalator. Escalators are fairly unsafe and not very accessible with children and the elderly the most common victims in terms of injury and death. Quite a few people die every year on escalator's from tripping, falling and other things.

Re: Lovin' their elevator: why Germans are loopy about paternosters

#44

Post by Asbostos »

KuchenKerze wrote: post #39
thomasz wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can assure you that this is a very dangerous assumption. In theory, almost all workplace safety regulations could be replaced by a "Just put up a 'don't be an idiot'" sign. But then we would have a lot of unnecessary deaths and horrible accidents. The are many reasons for this, but it mostly comes down to people being distracted and simple statistics - given enough time, even a small risk will lead to accidents.

I agree partially. But labelling a coffee cup with a notice that it is hot should not be necessary.

In the same way that labeling a guillotine with a notice that it could cut your fingers off should not be necessary? In both cases they seem safe because the people using them use them every day and are familiar with the risks. Unfortunately, what happens is every now and then an experienced factory worker cuts his fingers off in the same guillotine he's been operating for decades, or an old lady needs skin grafts on her legs after spilling a cup of hot coffee just like she's been drinking for decades.

Re: Lovin' their elevator: why Germans are loopy about paternosters

#45

Post by einrealist »

nemo44x wrote: post #43
einrealist wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Security is not the main issue. The main issue is accessibility. A disabled person or a person with a baby carriage cannot use them. It becomes a security issue when they do. 100 years ago, accessibility was not an issue.

It isn't much different than an escalator. Escalators are fairly unsafe and not very accessible with children and the elderly the most common victims in terms of injury and death. Quite a few people die every year on escalator's from tripping, falling and other things.

True. Maybe the escalator industry has a bigger lobby. ;)

Re: Lovin' their elevator: why Germans are loopy about paternosters

#46

Post by sp332 »

3pt14159 wrote: post #36
rffn wrote: post #9

The article misses important points about the reason for the outcry on the proposed law. Many people here are fed up with the overregulating nanny state with more and more unnecessary rules imposed by inept control freaks like Andrea Nahles. She also seems to have difficulties with judging the impact of her ideas. There are now way too many similar the her in today's politics (throughout most of the political parties…

How do people in wheel chairs and crutches reach different floors? If there is a handicapped or moving elevator as well, and if there is an auto-stop mechanism if someone's foot is stuck between lift and ceiling, then I see no reason why these shouldn't be in every office building or condo. They are clearly way more time efficient.

It's easy to fall some distance when the next lift is below your level.

Re: Lovin' their elevator: why Germans are loopy about paternosters

#47

Post by samatman »

sirtaj wrote: post #40
KuchenKerze wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't think of much more that could happen. My opinion is: if you are a human equipped with a brain (which functions normally) there is not much risk using an paternoster.

Any system of any kind is doomed to failure if it is designed around the requirement that humans behave infallibly at all times. Everyone is a distracted idiot some of the time.

True story: I dropped some luggage while getting onto a down escalator. It very nearly kneecapped someone who was old enough to be badly injured.

We were lucky, it was a very close thing. :\ Convenience vs. acceptable risk, with a certain amount of 'cool and rare' factor. Moving human bodies around is inherently dangerous.

Re: Lovin' their elevator: why Germans are loopy about paternosters

#48

Post by sp332 »

matt4077 wrote: post #30
furyg3 wrote: post #7

It seems like there should be a way to build these in a safe way. For example, angling the ceiling of the compartment as well as where the ceiling of the building meets the compartment should offer quite a lot more safety: http://i.imgur.com/CJbf1oq.png You could also imagine 'sprung' walls between the compartments that prevent limbs/feet from getting squashed. As for accessibility for disabled persons, I see no reas…

Indeed! Also, they should probably find a solution for that problem where little children get smashed like a not-so-lucky group of rebels in a trash compactor when the paternoster goes over the top.

From the first paragraph of the article:

"We’re not supposed to do the full circuit," he said. "But that’s the best way to feel like you’re on a ferris wheel or a gondola."

You can do a full circuit with no problem.

Re: Lovin' their elevator: why Germans are loopy about paternosters

#49

Post by sirtaj »

samatman wrote: post #47
sirtaj wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any system of any kind is doomed to failure if it is designed around the requirement that humans behave infallibly at all times. Everyone is a distracted idiot some of the time.

True story: I dropped some luggage while getting onto a down escalator. It very nearly kneecapped someone who was old enough to be badly injured. We were lucky, it was a very close thing. :\ Convenience vs. acceptable risk, with a certain amount of 'cool and rare' factor. Moving human bodies around is inherently dangerous.

Not surprising, escalators injure more than ten thousand people a year in the US alone, particularly the elderly. Moving people is dangerous, agreed, but if we gave in too quickly to the "just behave sensibly" people, our cars would still be the relative death-traps they were just thirty or so years ago. And that's just one example.

Re: Lovin' their elevator: why Germans are loopy about paternosters

#50

Post by 3pt14159 »

Asbostos wrote: post #41
3pt14159 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do people in wheel chairs and crutches reach different floors? If there is a handicapped or moving elevator as well, and if there is an auto-stop mechanism if someone's foot is stuck between lift and ceiling, then I see no reason why these shouldn't be in every office building or condo. They are clearly way more time efficient.

I don't think they're clearly more efficient. For a tall enough building, or low enough traffic, what you save in waiting time, you'd lose in the slower travelling speed.

Well, if I had access to Windows I could quickly tell you the bounds of where it is more efficient by using this: http://www.ezstrobe.com/ and assuming different types of arrivals (stochastic, etc). But I don't have Windows and I just learned one of my favorite professors died (it's listed on the website) so now I'm sad.

Maybe later I'll port to linux.

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