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Lovin' their elevator: why Germans are loopy about paternosters

theguardian.com

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Re: Lovin' their elevator: why Germans are loopy about paternosters

#31

Post by dcminter »

Yuioup wrote: post #20
KuchenKerze wrote: post #3

Sadly they are slowly disappearing. Mainly because of safety reasons, they are considered dangerous.

Just out of curiosity. I have never ridden one of those but what can actually go wrong? From what I can see: * You can jump in too late, thus falling an unexpected height and break your ankles. * You take too long getting in thus getting a garment/arm/leg stuck between the ceiling of the paternoster and the floor. Am I correct? Or am I missing something?

The one I used to use at Heathrow had hinged flaps as the flooring at the entrance so that if you caught a foot over the edge it would lift up with your foot ameliorating that second risk. I think the main danger of serious injury (rather than a bruise or sprain) was people carrying overlarge objects into the paternoster. I was in the building when one snapped a ladder and it was pretty noisy.

The overall risk is low but probably higher than that of a conventional lift although paternosters should be far more efficient.

Re: Lovin' their elevator: why Germans are loopy about paternosters

#32

Post by junto »

lorenzhs wrote: post #2

There really aren't many of them here in Germany. Funnily, the only one I ever used was in the UK, in Attenborough Tower at the University of Leicester. Never seen one in Germany, but here's a (probably incomplete) list of known paternosters worldwide: http://www.flemming-hamburg.de/patlist.htm

I've been in several of them in Bremen. Cool thing is that they are (mostly) in public buildings.

"Haus des Reichs (Senator für Finanzen, Finanzämter)", is basically the tax office.

You can walk in and ride up to the canteen and eat (on the top floor). It is also available to be used by the public (though not everyone knows that and assume that it is only for staff).

Re: Lovin' their elevator: why Germans are loopy about paternosters

#33

Post by Someone »

matt4077 wrote: post #30
furyg3 wrote: post #7

It seems like there should be a way to build these in a safe way. For example, angling the ceiling of the compartment as well as where the ceiling of the building meets the compartment should offer quite a lot more safety: http://i.imgur.com/CJbf1oq.png You could also imagine 'sprung' walls between the compartments that prevent limbs/feet from getting squashed. As for accessibility for disabled persons, I see no reas…

Indeed! Also, they should probably find a solution for that problem where little children get smashed like a not-so-lucky group of rebels in a trash compactor when the paternoster goes over the top.

That problem has been solved (look at the animation on https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternoster). I guess it had been solved before the first paternoster got installed. If so, it never was a real problem.

Re: Lovin' their elevator: why Germans are loopy about paternosters

#34

Post by Someone »

Yuioup wrote: post #20
KuchenKerze wrote: post #3

Sadly they are slowly disappearing. Mainly because of safety reasons, they are considered dangerous.

Just out of curiosity. I have never ridden one of those but what can actually go wrong? From what I can see: * You can jump in too late, thus falling an unexpected height and break your ankles. * You take too long getting in thus getting a garment/arm/leg stuck between the ceiling of the paternoster and the floor. Am I correct? Or am I missing something?

With a bare bones designe, if you are unlucky, your arm/leg won't get stuck, but get crushed or detached (violently)

Step out a tad too late while going down and trip on the unexpected step up you have to make, and a few seconds later, the top of the box may break your ankle. The falling _will_ happen, in particular to elderly with weaker bones, so you will have to come up with a solution that stops the device _fast_ if that happens. At the same time, for reliability, the device shouldn't come to a stop if someone heavy steps or jumps into a box.

Re: Lovin' their elevator: why Germans are loopy about paternosters

#35

Post by jlg23 »

The real WTF here is "Nahles claimed she had failed to read the small print in the new law restricting the use of paternosters, saying had she done so she would not have signed off on it."

A minister with a huge office, lots of aids and access to a scientific and legal research group considers that an adequate statement? Until now I thought the main qualification for German politicians would be to never have held a normal job in real life and involvement in a party's youth organization since the age of 14 at least - I guess I have to add "substandard reading comprehension" to that list.

Re: Lovin' their elevator: why Germans are loopy about paternosters

#36

Post by 3pt14159 »

rffn wrote: post #9

The article misses important points about the reason for the outcry on the proposed law. Many people here are fed up with the overregulating nanny state with more and more unnecessary rules imposed by inept control freaks like Andrea Nahles. She also seems to have difficulties with judging the impact of her ideas. There are now way too many similar the her in today's politics (throughout most of the political parties…

How do people in wheel chairs and crutches reach different floors? If there is a handicapped or moving elevator as well, and if there is an auto-stop mechanism if someone's foot is stuck between lift and ceiling, then I see no reason why these shouldn't be in every office building or condo. They are clearly way more time efficient.

Re: Lovin' their elevator: why Germans are loopy about paternosters

#37

Post by userbinator »

Search for 'klamrisk' to find a rather... infamous warning sign showing what not to do in one of these. That sign also turned into somewhat of a minor meme amongst the demoscene community several years ago (it even turned into a game: http://www.linusakesson.net/games/klamrisk/index.php ).

Re: Lovin' their elevator: why Germans are loopy about paternosters

#38

Post by Robadob »

artumi-richard wrote: post #14

I used one in the Arts Tower of Sheffield University where I studied. It was fun, but felt slow. There were also 2 (3?) conventional elevators that seemed like the best bet when doing more than 5 floors. It's still functional. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arts_Tower

Yeah, I've been on that one to and was rather unimpressed. One show did a segment about it a year or so ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAjYAfb_HPk

Re: Lovin' their elevator: why Germans are loopy about paternosters

#39

Post by KuchenKerze »

thomasz wrote: post #26
KuchenKerze wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't think of much more that could happen. My opinion is: if you are a human equipped with a brain (which functions normally) there is not much risk using an paternoster.

I can assure you that this is a very dangerous assumption. In theory, almost all workplace safety regulations could be replaced by a "Just put up a 'don't be an idiot'" sign. But then we would have a lot of unnecessary deaths and horrible accidents. The are many reasons for this, but it mostly comes down to people being distracted and simple statistics - given enough time, even a small risk will lead to accidents.

I agree partially. But labelling a coffee cup with a notice that it is hot should not be necessary.

Re: Lovin' their elevator: why Germans are loopy about paternosters

#40

Post by sirtaj »

KuchenKerze wrote: post #24
Yuioup wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just out of curiosity. I have never ridden one of those but what can actually go wrong? From what I can see: * You can jump in too late, thus falling an unexpected height and break your ankles. * You take too long getting in thus getting a garment/arm/leg stuck between the ceiling of the paternoster and the floor. Am I correct? Or am I missing something?

I can't think of much more that could happen. My opinion is: if you are a human equipped with a brain (which functions normally) there is not much risk using an paternoster.

Any system of any kind is doomed to failure if it is designed around the requirement that humans behave infallibly at all times. Everyone is a distracted idiot some of the time.
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