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Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

bbc.com

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Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#101

Post by talmand »

afarrell wrote: post #88
wavefunction wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly, but if the victims in the case don't feel that they've been raped, perhaps that's more important than the technicalities of what the State may or may not do.

Rape is a crime defined by its elements, not by whether or not the victim feels they were wronged. With all crimes, if a person commits a certain act with a certain intent/state of mind, they've committed a crime and the victim's feelings on the matter are irrelevant. Now, in a rape case, without the cooperation and testimony of the victim it is very hard to present enough evidence to convict a jury that the governme…

So, you are saying that while watering my lawn if I feel deep in my heart I'm committing a crime then I am, in fact, committing a crime?

Plus your stabbing example doesn't explain anything since you would have indeed physically harmed someone which is against the law in most jurisdictions. Considering your rape/not-rape example, a better example is that you would be arrested for thinking about stabbing someone in the arm as you are placing your hand on that arm.

If I were on the jury for either of these examples, supposed victim says no crime committed and the only evidence is the accusation from the state? There's no way you could convince me to vote to convict.

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#102

Post by knodi123 »

pfg wrote: post #81
cmdkeen wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except many of the claims his supporters make, including in this thread, are that what he allegedly did aren't actually crimes. The UK court system has repeatedly held that they are analogous to UK sexual offences. Others have argued that the Swedish prosecutor can't issue a warrant, again the Supreme Court decided otherwise. Given the scope of the UK Human Rights Act, along with the argued abuse of process claims, I…

I imagine the UK courts would hold that a rape charge in the UK is similar to a rape charge in Sweden. That makes sense. However, there's a difference between acknowledging that and ruling on whether the allegations have merit. They specifically didn't look at anything other than the allegations made on the European Arrest Warrant. From the High Court decision: > In respect of each offence, Mr Assange contended that…

> I imagine the UK courts would hold that a rape charge in the UK is similar to a rape charge in Sweden.

Although to be clear, there are no rape charges involved in the Assange case. The crime he is accused of in Sweden is not even illegal in some countries.

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#103

Post by rmc »

jazzyk wrote: post #73
youngtaff wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup they do so where is your evidence he was going to be extradited from Sweden to the US?

A few years ago, I would have said it was pure paranoia/conspiracy theory to suspect Sweden would extradite Assange. However, look at what happened to Snowden, stuck at the Moscow airport, because no country in the world (bar Ecuador and Cuba, I think) was brave enough to take him (fearing US wrath). The pressure from the US was immense. At some point a plane flying from Moscow to Ecuador (via Paris) was intercepted…

So why stay in the UK? While appealing the extradition to Sweden, he was happy to stay in the UK. It was only when the UK legal system said that he had to go to Sweden that he went to Ecudarian embassy?

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#105

Post by knodi123 »

Bohahahaha wrote: post #55

Assange was now 5yrs 'imprisoned', how much would he have gotten in Sweden on the charges? (if proven guilty)

That's never what he was concerned about. What he was concerned about was Sweden convicting him, and then once they have him, extraditing to the US to be thrown in a deep dark hole for the rest of his life for espionage.

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#106

Post by cinquemb »

happyscrappy wrote: post #83
Bohahahaha wrote: post #79

"Those doubting the degree of ruthlessness Assange can expect should remember the forcing down of the Bolivian president's plane in 2013 - wrongly believed to be carrying Edward Snowden." If you think of Sweden as ABBA, think again: "In December 2010, The Independent revealed that the two governments had discussed his onward extradition to the US." "The rendition and subsequent torture of two Egyptian political refug…

There is a reason Snowden didn't dump all the data he had into a public file like some meglomaniacle clown.

All this does is just keep information from the general public, and enable the present asymmetry we see at play between the State (might as well throw in corporate contractors and NGO's) and the public.

The "Chinese" certainly don't have too hard of time getting good info (OPM hack, etc), at least going by the way you hear the cries of fire in the crowded theatre of what passes for journalism and news.

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#107

Post by pfg »

rmc wrote: post #92
pfg wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine the UK courts would hold that a rape charge in the UK is similar to a rape charge in Sweden. That makes sense. However, there's a difference between acknowledging that and ruling on whether the allegations have merit. They specifically didn't look at anything other than the allegations made on the European Arrest Warrant. From the High Court decision: > In respect of each offence, Mr Assange contended that…

So he wanted to be tried in the UK instead of Sweden?

That's not my point. It was implied that the High Court decision somehow validated the charges against Assange, while all they did was confirm that, yes, the UK do have laws against rape.

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#108

Post by stephengillie »

afarrell wrote: post #88
wavefunction wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly, but if the victims in the case don't feel that they've been raped, perhaps that's more important than the technicalities of what the State may or may not do.

Rape is a crime defined by its elements, not by whether or not the victim feels they were wronged. With all crimes, if a person commits a certain act with a certain intent/state of mind, they've committed a crime and the victim's feelings on the matter are irrelevant. Now, in a rape case, without the cooperation and testimony of the victim it is very hard to present enough evidence to convict a jury that the governme…

So you're saying that if I take something that belongs to another person, but I believe that I should have it, no crime has been committed?

That sounds like an interesting theory on Crime and Punishment.

Edit: If you feel I've misunderstood the parent comment, please provide a better explanation.

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#109

Post by quonn »

rmc wrote: post #96
quonn wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact is that he was questioned before, stayed in the country and left after they allowed him to leave. Later Sweden decided to change it's mind and requested an extradition - just for questioning him, which they could easily have done locally (and, by the way, other countries do this) - which is, perhaps, not very common. And _coincidently_ this happened while Wikileaks was all over the media and the US was infur…

"questioning" is misleading. He was going to be arrested in Sweden.

It's not misleading since questioning him is exactly what they wanted to do, what they had to do first according to their own laws and what they should have done. Sweden might also like to arrest him, but as we know he did not like to be arrested and it seems Ecuador did not like it either.

There was a fairly high-profile money laundering case in the conservative party in Germany at the end of the 90's. It involved a German arms trader who lived in Canada. They wanted to question him and, had he been in Germany, he would presumably have been arrested. Alas, he was in Canada. So they made the effort to travel and question him there, if I remember correctly. (But eventually he was extradited.)

Re: Julian Assange 'disappointed' as sex assault case dropped

#110

Post by Tloewald »

rmc wrote: post #93
Bohahahaha wrote: post #79

"Those doubting the degree of ruthlessness Assange can expect should remember the forcing down of the Bolivian president's plane in 2013 - wrongly believed to be carrying Edward Snowden." If you think of Sweden as ABBA, think again: "In December 2010, The Independent revealed that the two governments had discussed his onward extradition to the US." "The rendition and subsequent torture of two Egyptian political refug…

Because the UK has a fine human rights record (look at Northern Ireland) and always stands up the the USA (look at Iraq)

He's not relying on the UK, but on Ecuador (which doesn't have such a great track record either). Then again, Snowden is relying on Russia.

Enemy of my enemy, and all that.

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