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“It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

kickstarter.com

241–250 of 392 posts

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#241
post #229

I wanted to believe that a team of 6 to 10 people could make a game that looked and felt AAA. Boy was I wrong! When we made Crash Bandicoot (with a team of 7), it was already virtually impossible to make a AAA game with 6-10 people, and that was 20 years ago. I tell inexperienced entrepreneurs to take their honest best estimate and multiply by 10. Or, as Mark Cerny (our producer on Crash) used to tell us, "add one an…

Stupid, deceptively-simple question: Why can't you do something like "Game on Rails", where you set up a basic framework that has all the stuff a game normally needs, and then you only have to layer your assets and logic on top of it? Do game devs already use something like that and still have these delays?

There are lots of frameworks for game development, but the problem is exactly in what you've described: rails. You can only get so far within the constraints of those frameworks before you need something it just can't do, and have to develop yourself. Depending on the framework, this may not even be possible (which is what leads to creation of new frameworks).

With that said, a lot of great (albeit typically somewhat simple) games are made with frameworks. When I when to a few game jams back in college, we typically started with something so that we could have a "complete" game by the end.

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#242
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't generalise, I gave an cherry picked example of a company that promised things they already had made (e.g. a wallpaper and soundtrack) and then said it's not always like that and so it depends, but it's not a priori a bad idea. The OP generalised by saying they wished game devs would simply never do merchandise all together, even though it looks like this project raised half its budget from rewards, and I thi…

I was talking about how you believe that fulfilling a book order is that simple.

Can you be more specific? They actually said they had everything made and printed, can't be that hard... they simply didn't end up having enough money for shipping costs because they went bankrupt for other reasons. Again, they made an accounting mistake, instead of earmarking the funds for shipping, they expected once the game launched they'd sell easily (they were greenlit in days, featured at the E3 etc), they'd easily manage shipping.

I mean let's be clear here, they had a bunch of artwork laying around already (we know this), artwork that ended up in a wallpaper, and they had rewards of $30 - $50 for the game + some digital stuff (e.g. an mp3 of the soundtrack) + getting this artwork mailed to them. Oh and the game was just $10.

So in effect they have a PDF on their computer, and they're charging $20 print and send it to you. (this isn't even the booklet, just the wallpaper, the booklet+wallpaper costs $40 extra ontop of the game).

Now you find me a scrappy indie game dev that doesn't want that, or can't handle it, or can't make that profitable. Don't act like that is rocket science. You telling me if you're running a small shop of 5 people and you're so scrappy you'll risk bankruptcy 6 months later, that printing and shipping a PDF for $20 to 1000 people isn't workable? That generating this $20k revenue (1/3rd of what they pulled in) from a wallpaper, can't be done for less than $10k everything included (printing, labor, shipping).

I mean hell I can print 1.000 A3s for less than $1k without much effort, already found a quote for that, and it'd be printed within a day. Again, they said they had everything printed and ready, that's not the issue here. Then I reward myself $3k for an entire month of effort of shipping pieces of paper (big deal, could do it in a week), and I spend $3 to mail 1 piece of paper each. I still make $13k, enough to pay a developer in Belgium for 3 months. And considering I spent $3k on the labor, I might as well outsource it to some highschool intern who gets a ridiculously royal salary of $3k for barely a week's worth of work. And I'm being pretty generous with the margins here, even if you nitpick here and there, and add some other factors, it's still a good deal. In fact I doubt they regretted their decision, merchandise was half their campaign revenue.

Now I KNOW there are companies that offer ridiculous stuff. 1) offer things they haven't made yet (like a mini comic to go along with the game, which requires a lot of time spent) and 2) things that make no economic sense (a $20 reward for a 3d printed game thingy, which costs $15 to make and $10 to ship, and time spent). And that this makes no economic sense and often fails.

My point is that while merchandise isn't always a good idea, it definitely can be, and that it probably was for this company.

As for a 'book order', it's just a booklet made out of a bit of paper, at a quantity of 1000 of them they cost about $1 each or so. Remember they're part of a $40 reward which has a booklet, wallpaper (combined <$2) and digital rewards like a soundtrack. Hardly unfeasible, this is on top of the $10 of the game's price.

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't generalise, I gave an cherry picked example of a company that promised things they already had made (e.g. a wallpaper and soundtrack) and then said it's not always like that and so it depends, but it's not a priori a bad idea. The OP generalised by saying they wished game devs would simply never do merchandise all together, even though it looks like this project raised half its budget from rewards, and I thi…

I think part of the problem is that they vastly underestimated the logistics of getting these physical items produced, and I think the GP's point is that you're doing exactly the same thing. You don't just go to a local printer and say "make me a booklet" and write a check and you're done.

Indulge me? I've done it plenty of times :-/

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#244

I wanted to believe that a team of 6 to 10 people could make a game that looked and felt AAA. Boy was I wrong! When we made Crash Bandicoot (with a team of 7), it was already virtually impossible to make a AAA game with 6-10 people, and that was 20 years ago. I tell inexperienced entrepreneurs to take their honest best estimate and multiply by 10. Or, as Mark Cerny (our producer on Crash) used to tell us, "add one an…

I was in gaming for 4 years or so. It was horrifying to see how much code that is not reused (excluding math/physics libraries). IMHO - The art pipline is the real time suck and can make or break a game deadline. Just think of the staff alone to pull off a art pipeline. Producer -> Game Play expert -> Artist -> tools engineer -> graphics/engine guys -> game designers/ai guys. Just that chain alone from a tech perspective: LAU, databases, openGL, Maya3d, C++ tools, art vector tools, phyics engines, ai engines which are mostly proprietary. Budgets were like movies. Millions and millions. Oh yeah. And most are canceled after years of hard work.

I think if you are making a 3d game you haven't thought things through.

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#245
post #44

I wanted to believe that a team of 6 to 10 people could make a game that looked and felt AAA. Boy was I wrong! When we made Crash Bandicoot (with a team of 7), it was already virtually impossible to make a AAA game with 6-10 people, and that was 20 years ago. I tell inexperienced entrepreneurs to take their honest best estimate and multiply by 10. Or, as Mark Cerny (our producer on Crash) used to tell us, "add one an…

Issues with estimating, particularly something like this, mostly comes down to meta-ignorance: you don't know what you don't know. Given a particular problem of a similar sort to something he's worked on, an experienced engineer will be able to list 10 different issues that might crop up. An inexperienced engineer won't know of those potential problems and will just see the most optimistic path possible. When you're…

And in my experience, for every 10 issues that I realize it might crop up, I know there's also 10 issues that I DON'T realize it might crop up, so I take that into account

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#246

I wanted to believe that a team of 6 to 10 people could make a game that looked and felt AAA. Boy was I wrong! When we made Crash Bandicoot (with a team of 7), it was already virtually impossible to make a AAA game with 6-10 people, and that was 20 years ago. I tell inexperienced entrepreneurs to take their honest best estimate and multiply by 10. Or, as Mark Cerny (our producer on Crash) used to tell us, "add one an…

Crash Bandicoot is an awesome game! :)

Also there is a parallel between your "add one and increase the unit" and the estimation of what kind of manpower you need to take an defended objective. The wisdom here is basically the same: If you are facing an objective defended by a squad, you will need a platoon to take it. If you are looking at a platoon dug in to the objective, you will need a company to take it. An entrenched company needs to be uprooted by a battalion, et cetera.

It's from this (The Mythical Man Month as you mention, and the estimations the infantry taught me) that I have built a kind of mental model for estimating things, that ends up being sort of universal like the 80-20 rule.

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#247

Here is the steam page. http://store.steampowered.com/app/281940/ Remind me of Alice, which had some beautiful levels. http://store.steampowered.com/app/19680/

I'm confused - how is it failed if they launched it on Steam? Is that just a demo?

The game doesn't sell well enough to cover running costs.

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meta-stupidity actually has another term for it as well - the Dunning-Kruger effect - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect - people that are inexperienced in a topic don't know what they don't know (as you put it, meta-stupidity) and so think they're smarter than they actually are - people that are more knowledgable know how vast the topic is, so realize their knowledge is less compared to overall know…

The dunning kreuger effect is useless. Dumb people think they are smart, smart people think they are smart. Nothing to be gleaned from that. Only at the very fringe of the intelligent side do the lines of actual intelligence and perceived intelligence cross.

Actually the tendency is, that the more you know the more aware you get of the things you don't know. So while dumb people may overestimate their aptitude the smarter people tend to underestimate themselves. The most extreme manifestation would probably be the impostor syndrome. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#249
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

72k can keep you alive on sub-standard living conditions, but it will not keep a team of 6-7 talented programmers and artists alive for very long. Not even for way below market pay and working in a garage. And a single person just cannot turn out something close to a AAA title.

Don't forget that they get a good chunk less than 72k. You gotta factor in KS' cut and the cost of obtaining and shipping the physical rewards. I feel like a lot of people underestimate the work/cost involved in physical rewards. I remember reading a game devs blog post about the subject.

Definitely not enough cash.

Overwhelmed by rewards seems to be a common failure on KS. The list he rattles off in this case is quite extensive, and the postage cost is all that's preventing it from being sent. I wouldn't be surprised if they have 10k into rewards alone, especially when you account the time spent developing them.

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#250
This is such a hard thing for me to read.

Game development is so incredibly hard. It feels like a winner-takes-all game where the very top 1% have everything, and the rest have almost nothing.

It's a shame that this studio has to fold. The game looks pretty good. You don't get to that point without having incredibly talented artists, programmers and managers, without having a team that's working pretty well together. And yeah, their reviews on steam aren't perfect -- but to me that doesn't seem that terrible. Everyone stumbles before they really catch their stride.

It sounds like they just ran out of money, really. They ran out of time. They weren't given a real shot. What a shame. I see startups pop up all over the valley here that don't even have a tiny fraction of the ingenuity and talent of this company.

It's a shame that our economy doesn't value art like this more. A real shame.

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