“It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed” • Hacker News Board

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#221

Post by jakejake » Wed, Aug 12, 2015, 6:31 PM UTC

blakeyrat wrote: post #214

TomGullen wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "AAA Game" mean anyway? I'm a bit lost on the definition. Wikipedia says: > In the video game industry, AAA (pronounced "triple A") is a classification term used for games with the highest development budgets and levels of promotion. A title considered to be AAA is therefore expected to be a high quality game and to be among the year's bestsellers. By definition, a budget of $75k + 6-10 people wont make an…

This is all from the top of my head. Credentials: I play a lot of video games. AAA game (typical example: Skyrim): * Sells for $50-$60 * Has cutting-edge graphics and (generally) runs on the newest generation of hardware * Is available on most/all gaming platforms * (Nowadays) Usually has some celebrity involvement (Skyrim had Max von Sydow, Christopher Plummer, Michael Hogan. Oblivion had Patrick Stewart.) * 20+ hou…

One thing to add to that list is that an AAA game is also somewhat defined by the amount of marketing and promotion that goes along with it.

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#222

Post by a-nikolaev » Wed, Aug 12, 2015, 6:31 PM UTC

bluedino wrote: post #8

themoonbus wrote: post #3

"But changing gameplay from 2D to 3D had a major impact on overall development cost (we found out a little too late)" Not to pile on, but this was very surprising to me... how could you not know that this would have a major impact?

Bit off more than they could chew? Didn't have an extensive background in game building? Perhaps they just never built a 3D game before? It's kind of like when some of the first 3D games came out, modelers would model a brick then build a wall out of them, instead of just modeling a brick wall other ways, like putting a brick texture on a regular wall. They probably just couldn't come up with a good way to 'cheat' 3D…

Agreed, game development is the art of making illusions.

Proper simulation, or any kind of complex machinery working behind the scene rarely adds a lot of value to the resulting game (sadly). And moreover, I'm certain that relying of cheap tricks is the greatest virtue in game development. And there is nothing derogative or ignoble about that. Knowing where to cut corners is an extremely valuable skill, and it requires a lot of intelligence, experience, and careful planning.

Computer games are a lot like real-life magic. The best results are achieved if you do cheap tricks, but you do them well..

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#223

Post by blakeyrat » Wed, Aug 12, 2015, 6:33 PM UTC

kelukelugames wrote: post #2

Here is the steam page. http://store.steampowered.com/app/281940/ Remind me of Alice, which had some beautiful levels. http://store.steampowered.com/app/19680/

That what amazed me about this, is it looks like they were basically creating a complete clone of Alice: Madness Returns.

I mean, I know Alice didn't sell well, but surely someone pointed that out to them?

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#224

Post by ethbro » Wed, Aug 12, 2015, 6:33 PM UTC

WmyEE0UsWAwC2i wrote: post #200

rkangel wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Issues with estimating, particularly something like this, mostly comes down to meta-ignorance: you don't know what you don't know. Given a particular problem of a similar sort to something he's worked on, an experienced engineer will be able to list 10 different issues that might crop up. An inexperienced engineer won't know of those potential problems and will just see the most optimistic path possible. When you're…

Maybe it is easier to come out with a list of: a. "things that would mean the project failed." in contrast to: b. "things that could lead the project to fail." For "a" one could list. There is no money left. The team desintegrates. Etc... And finally ask yourself, what could I do now so that, if we arrive to any of the listed sutations the damage is reduced. Take this comment with a grain of salt. As every other comm…

This is actually exactly what I heard on an NPR report about a consultant (yes, cries from the peanut gallery) who helps companies learn to manage projects better.

After doing all the normal project management estimates, etc, the very first thing he does is sit down everyone who will actually be implementing the project (or a representative sample).

He then asks them a simple question: "Come up with one scenario where this project would fail."

The implication being that this is lateral to the train of thought people use to make initial estimates. Iow, in all possible estimation scenarios, the project is assumed to have been a success! It's not unreasonable to expect that implicit optimism to filter down through sub-estimates.

His point was that giving people permission to imagine scenarios for total and abject failure identified important risks that could be back-fed to improve the initial optimistic estimate.

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#225

Post by s73v3r » Wed, Aug 12, 2015, 6:44 PM UTC

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #203

s73v3r wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think generalizations like yours are why things like this fail.

I didn't generalise, I gave an cherry picked example of a company that promised things they already had made (e.g. a wallpaper and soundtrack) and then said it's not always like that and so it depends, but it's not a priori a bad idea. The OP generalised by saying they wished game devs would simply never do merchandise all together, even though it looks like this project raised half its budget from rewards, and I thi…

I was talking about how you believe that fulfilling a book order is that simple.

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#226

Post by voronoff » Wed, Aug 12, 2015, 6:46 PM UTC

blakeyrat wrote: post #214

TomGullen wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "AAA Game" mean anyway? I'm a bit lost on the definition. Wikipedia says: > In the video game industry, AAA (pronounced "triple A") is a classification term used for games with the highest development budgets and levels of promotion. A title considered to be AAA is therefore expected to be a high quality game and to be among the year's bestsellers. By definition, a budget of $75k + 6-10 people wont make an…

This is all from the top of my head. Credentials: I play a lot of video games. AAA game (typical example: Skyrim): * Sells for $50-$60 * Has cutting-edge graphics and (generally) runs on the newest generation of hardware * Is available on most/all gaming platforms * (Nowadays) Usually has some celebrity involvement (Skyrim had Max von Sydow, Christopher Plummer, Michael Hogan. Oblivion had Patrick Stewart.) * 20+ hou…

AAA games are frequently one platform, generally either PC for UI reasons or locked into a particular console as an exclusive.

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#227

Post by magic_beans » Wed, Aug 12, 2015, 6:50 PM UTC

selestify wrote: post #190

rockdoe wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what the developer gets, net. Multiply by 2.5x for what the employer actually has to pay. 72k USD will get you one senior developer for one year.

72k USD per year seems quite low for even a fresh junior developer...

What state do you live in?! I make 20k less than that as a junior dev.

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#228

Post by Kequc » Wed, Aug 12, 2015, 6:57 PM UTC

roel_v wrote: post #195

The assets of this company are, essentially, worthless. I think the liquidator would jump for joy on a bid of, let's say, 5 or 10k euros for all IP of this game. I've seen cases where IP that cost orders of magnitude more to develop sell for less, sometimes under the condition 'you have to take the office inventory too, because otherwise I have to pay for getting it disposed of' (where 'I' is the liquidator). If anyo…

Maybe they could do a kickstarter.

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#229

Post by SilasX » Wed, Aug 12, 2015, 6:59 PM UTC

dmbaggett wrote: post #10

I wanted to believe that a team of 6 to 10 people could make a game that looked and felt AAA. Boy was I wrong! When we made Crash Bandicoot (with a team of 7), it was already virtually impossible to make a AAA game with 6-10 people, and that was 20 years ago. I tell inexperienced entrepreneurs to take their honest best estimate and multiply by 10. Or, as Mark Cerny (our producer on Crash) used to tell us, "add one an…

Stupid, deceptively-simple question:

Why can't you do something like "Game on Rails", where you set up a basic framework that has all the stuff a game normally needs, and then you only have to layer your assets and logic on top of it?

Do game devs already use something like that and still have these delays?

Re: “It’s done, there is no way back. We tried, we failed”

#230

Post by zarkone » Wed, Aug 12, 2015, 7:02 PM UTC

dmbaggett wrote: post #72

ivanca wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Offtpic but you worked on Crash Bandicoot!? That's so awesome. I loved each version of that game and it made our childhoods much more fun (at countries all over the world, just as an example I'm from Colombia)

I never get tired of hearing that -- thank you! :)

I've tried and beat Crash Bandicoot and Crash Cart for the first time this year. (I'm 25, and neither me nor my friends had PS1 in my childhood). While playing this game I was like always been on the bleeding edge between difficulty, wishing to give up and encouragement... I mean, I just couldn't resist, -- I couldn't turn off the console, in spite of the fact that I had to re-run some levels about ~50-80 times to beat.. It was amazing, very challenging journey, i had always been feeling that arcade spirit while playing, which is such rarity nowdays.