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GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

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Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#71

Post by bluecalm »

tomp wrote: post #6
stefantalpalaru wrote: post #4

> to protect people who are typically the target of harassment in open source So if you are subjected to an unusual type of harassment, you're on your own?

I guess the idea is, to prevent (or at least discourage) the usual types of harassment up-front, and deal with the more unusual, rare forms on-the-fly as they appear.

Yet, there is specific point about "reverse-sexism" and "reverse -ism" not being considered a problem. The concerns are valid, the text is written with an agenda in mind and the agenda makes people weary.

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#73

Post by iLoch »

teamhappy wrote: post #54
zxcvcxz wrote: post #21

>Physical contact and simulated physical contact (eg, textual descriptions like “ hug ” or “ backrub ”) without consent or after a request to stop. [violates the code of conduct] I can't tell if this is a joke or not.

Can't wait to hear a legal professional's opinion vis-à-vis simulated back rubbing. But seriously, I'm hearing about this for the first time. Can anybody explain to me why this particular CoC is more controversial than any other random CoC?

I'm probably going to burn myself here, we'll see. It seems to be written to protect minorities from majorities, as opposed to protecting everyone equally. For example they mention that they will not be handling complaints related to "reverse-isms" such as "reverse-racism" which is actually just racism. And this is coming from a CoC which is designed to be adopted by projects.

Their argument is that "straight white males" can't be subject to racism or sexism simply because of their race and gender. This would obviously generate controversy and is generally a racist and sexist statement, which is likely why they put the project on hold - it could create a lot of negative news coverage for GitHub.

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#74

Post by alextgordon »

xiaoma wrote: post #70
ipsin wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, that's what I immediately thought. If you know someone or have formed any kind of relationship with them, that sort of "virtual hug" can be appropriate, but in other contexts it can be a pretty damn creepy way to push buttons. This is me violating your personal space.

In Latino cultures, a hug would be completely appropriate. Why is it your culture that gets to decide? I find that attitude in itself offensive, especially considering we're talking about text . If you get creeped out by even a virtual hug and see more open people as violators, that's your problem, not theirs.

It's an obvious restatement of American christian values. Any physical contact is implicitly sexually charged, and so even a reference to it is objectionable.

Of course if we're going to apply one religiously-inspired value system, then why not Saudi Arabian values?

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#75

Post by return0 »

voltagex_ wrote: post #25
josteink wrote: post #20

That's the smartest thing they've done all week. Now it's time to bury it dead. This is a solution looking for a problem (tm). The only thing this code of conduct does beside state the obvious (behave like adults) is the implied distrust expressed by introducing it in the first place: that without being nannied into proper behaviour, we would all act like vile animals. Generally I find such nannying deeply offensive.

Why? Edit: you edited that comment from a single line since I posted this. To elaborate: I think that codes of conduct can be very very useful, especially in resolving disputes or setting community standards. I don't think it's driven out of distrust. High profile harassment on GitHub is not good for GitHub, or the open source community as a whole.

So is github trying to become the defacto community leader of all open source software? I was under the impression there are many different teams in there that had different standards. Does open source even need a universal nanny? Isnt the idea of free software completely opposite to this?

It would make sense if github did this in response to persistent issues with the community, but by doing it pre-emptively it seems like they have ambitions to become some kind of worldwide coordinator.

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#76

Post by zxcvcxz »

sagichmal wrote: post #30
anon3_ wrote: post #12

I group "Code of Conduct" with Political Correctness. For anyone interested in a good read on the subject, check out End of Discussion: How the Left's Outrage Industry Shuts Down Debate, Manipulates Voters, and Makes America Less Free (and Fun) by Mary Ham and Guy Benson. It's an excellent read, and shouldn't be too much of a sting to the social outrage panderers out there.

> I set up my web browser to automatically change > "political correctness" to "treating people with > respect" https://twitter.com/byronclarknz/status/628702214391902208 If you use the phrase "social outrage" or "social justice" as a pejorative, you're part of the problem :)

What do you call people who use social justice as an excuse to harass and belittle people who have different opinions than them?

You shouldn't be upset at people using terms like social justice as a pejorative, you should be upset that people are attempting to push authoritarian ideology under the moniker of social justice :)

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#77

Post by d9h549f34w6 »

xiaoma wrote: post #70
ipsin wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, that's what I immediately thought. If you know someone or have formed any kind of relationship with them, that sort of "virtual hug" can be appropriate, but in other contexts it can be a pretty damn creepy way to push buttons. This is me violating your personal space.

In Latino cultures, a hug would be completely appropriate. Why is it your culture that gets to decide? I find that attitude in itself offensive, especially considering we're talking about text . If you get creeped out by even a virtual hug and see more open people as violators, that's your problem, not theirs.

Exactly. I think this is the aspect that's "rubbed me the wrong way" about this CoC thing. I don't come from a culture where workplace physical contact would be seen as acceptable, but I'm not about to claim that that's some sort of human universal without a lot more research.

The sense I get from GitHub's CoC effort is that it's attempting to codify supposedly universal modes of proper human interaction without recognizing that it's sourced in a specific, local culture.

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#78

Post by curun1r »

jameskilton wrote: post #22
nadams wrote: post #19

I feel like an open code of conduct is unnecessary. Really - the only thing you need to remember is - be nice to each other and be patient with those supplying advice and those who are asking for advice. (I have screenshots of discussions that violate this simple fundamental rule). I have flagged 40+ comments (that were accepted and acted upon) on stackoverflow alone of people just being stupid jerks. The SVN people…

It shouldn't be necessary, but it is. We live in an age where if an action is not explicitly called out as unacceptable, a significant number of people will perform said action, because if it's not explicitly unacceptable, it's obviously acceptable. In short, if you don't say I can't abuse people, it's ok for me to abuse people. Oh, and these people will also happily throw around the "First Amendment" as justificatio…

The reason they're unnecessary is that codes of conduct aren't legally enforceable and the resulting actions from violating them can be taken by the community regardless of whether they have a code of conduct. I agree with Bo Burnham when he said, "Who needs a thousand metaphors to realize you shouldn't be a dick?" [1] (or, in this case, a thousand prohibited behaviors)

If someone does act in a way that is unacceptable, the community should, politely, explain to them that that sort of behavior isn't allowed and why it's not allowed, since often times people are communicating in a foreign language or are coming from a culture that has different norms. If the behavior persists, you take whatever action you would have taken had you had a code of conduct.

Basically, there's no practical need for legal-level detail in a code of conduct, just use, "don't be a jerk."

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxc20saM8DA (audio NSFW)

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#79

Post by anon3_ »

sagichmal wrote: post #30
anon3_ wrote: post #12

I group "Code of Conduct" with Political Correctness. For anyone interested in a good read on the subject, check out End of Discussion: How the Left's Outrage Industry Shuts Down Debate, Manipulates Voters, and Makes America Less Free (and Fun) by Mary Ham and Guy Benson. It's an excellent read, and shouldn't be too much of a sting to the social outrage panderers out there.

> I set up my web browser to automatically change > "political correctness" to "treating people with > respect" https://twitter.com/byronclarknz/status/628702214391902208 If you use the phrase "social outrage" or "social justice" as a pejorative, you're part of the problem :)

> If you use the phrase "social outrage" or "social justice" as a pejorative, you're part of the problem :)

The first thing is to understand it's a problem to simply prima facie discount someone.

It is outrage at social things. 9/10 of the people complaining are just trolls who don't even code.

The rest are beta males who emasculate themselves playing apart in it. 5 years from now - they're going to risk losing too much face to dig themselves out of the chasm of imaginary virtue they dug themselves into.

Also, for those who may be open to hearing a different perspective from their own (hint hint: we conservatives are not boogie men seeking to bully women and gays) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRUgFG5XQiM

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#80

Post by rndgermandude »

iLoch wrote: post #73
teamhappy wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't wait to hear a legal professional's opinion vis-à-vis simulated back rubbing. But seriously, I'm hearing about this for the first time. Can anybody explain to me why this particular CoC is more controversial than any other random CoC?

I'm probably going to burn myself here, we'll see. It seems to be written to protect minorities from majorities, as opposed to protecting everyone equally. For example they mention that they will not be handling complaints related to "reverse-isms" such as "reverse-racism" which is actually just racism. And this is coming from a CoC which is designed to be adopted by projects. Their argument is that "straight white m…

To give a little context, it reads:

> We will not act on complaints regarding: ‘Reverse’ -isms, including ‘reverse racism,’ ‘reverse sexism,’ and ‘cisphobia’

This was taken from http://geekfeminism.org/about/code-of-conduct/ with one omission:

> The Geek Feminism Anti-Abuse Team will not act on complaints regarding: ‘Reverse’ -isms, including ‘reverse racism,’ ‘reverse sexism,’ and ‘cisphobia’ (because these things don’t exist)

I'd agree that the reverse-isms do not exist. Sexism is sexism no matter who it affects. But it is not clear to me if the text should be interpreted this way...

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