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GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

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Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#41
post #33
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In an employment environment, that is clearcut sexual harassment. The OCC is bringing some of that professionalism to open source communities. Why would it be a joke to ban annoying personally-targeted behaviors that are unrelated to the work product? I can't think of a case where discussing cuddling someone is appropriate for a Pull Request, mailing list, or IRC chat

hugs plonh

Thanks, that's what I immediately thought.

If you know someone or have formed any kind of relationship with them, that sort of "virtual hug" can be appropriate, but in other contexts it can be a pretty damn creepy way to push buttons.

This is me violating your personal space.

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#42
It is terribly worded and quite off-putting. It also has a lot of stuff in it which could be summed up as "be a decent person". Saved space could be used to express specific ideas about desired behavior. Some comments:

Offensive comments related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, mental illness, neuro(a)typicality, physical appearance, body size, race, age, regional discrimination, political or religious affiliation

Both too general and too specific. If the goal is to say offensive comments are not permitted then leave it at: "offensive comments". If comments regarding things on the list should be avoided say it. I mean, what about "comments about sexual orientation, mental illnesses etc. of other project members are not permitted". Why is political affiliation on the list I don't really know either. Political affiliation or religion might be completely off-topic for open source projects but putting them in the same list as race/age/body size/physical appearance/gender etc. makes very little sense. Just don't talk about politics or religion if they are unrelated to the project. Don't talk about diet ideas either when we are at that.

Unwelcome comments regarding a person’s lifestyle choices and practices, including those related to food, health, parenting, drugs, and employment

"Don't make personal attacks and avoid personal remarks in general".

Deliberate misgendering

Already covered in "comments about gender/sexual orientation/mental ilnesses/etc. of other members".

Physical contact and simulated physical contact (eg, textual descriptions like “hug” or “backrub”) without consent or after a request to stop

It really doesn't seem to be necessary and makes the whole thing sound not very serious.

Threats of violence, both physical and psychological Incitement of violence towards any individual, including encouraging a person to commit suicide or to engage in self-harm Deliberate intimidation

Yeah but make it shorter: "Threats of violence, intimidation or encouraging them".

Deliberate “outing” of any aspect of a person’s identity without their consent except as necessary to protect others from intentional abuse

Actual problem and specific behavior hidden among 20 or so points which could be shortened to 3. More points like that please.

Publication of non-harassing private communication

Another good point: specific behavior which isn't universally understood as undesired and should be specifically included in CoC.

‘Reverse’ -isms, including ‘reverse racism,’ ‘reverse sexism,’ and ‘cisphobia’

Reverse sexism is sexism. Remove all "reverse" non-sense. The whole text reads like mumbling on Tumblr.

Refusal to explain or debate social justice concepts

Yeah, refusal to explain or debate recent fruit diet should be included as well.

Criticizing racist, sexist, cissexist, or otherwise oppressive behavior or assumptions

All this is covered in point about sexism and discrimination. Cissexist or cisgender aren't actual words in a dictionary and should be avoided in an international CoC.

If someone has been harmed or offended, it is our responsibility to listen carefully and respectfully, and do our best to right the wrong.

This is nonsense. Someone being harmed is a serious issue. Someone being offended - not so much. Mixing the two takes away from serious issues and dilute them in ocean of meaningless words without any specific behaviors attached to them.

Although this list cannot be exhaustive, we explicitly honor diversity in age, gender, gender identity or expression, culture, ethnicity, language, national origin, political beliefs, profession, race, religion, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, and technical ability.

Blablablabla, 3rd time in the same text. Just remove the whole section. It doesn't contribute anything.

If you experience or witness unacceptable behavior—or have any other concerns—please report it by contacting us via abuse@todogroup.org. All reports will be handled with discretion. In your report please include:

"If you experience unacceptable behavior or have any questions, contact us at abuse@todogroup.org. All reports will be handled with discretion." The rest of the paragraph is pointless.

Overall it's a terribly written text which is thin on specifics and repeats itself several times. Maybe ask an actual technical writer to put things together. Make it shorter as well.

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#43
post #23
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like a lot of people are just upset because they feel the CoC discriminates against them. You are harassed and have privileges ? I don't care, being harassed is still not fine whether you have privileges or not. Seems to sum up what most people are complaining about.

For the sake of discussion, this is the part that people seem to be taking the most issue with: Our open source community prioritizes marginalized people’s safety over privileged people’s comfort. We will not act on complaints regarding: - ‘Reverse’ -isms, including ‘reverse racism,’ ‘reverse sexism,’ and ‘cisphobia’ - Reasonable communication of boundaries, such as “leave me alone,” “go away,” or “I’m not discussing…

How can people still deny that this isn't clear discrimination against straight white males? The PC police talk about all the "coded racism" that they see all day but they can't tell that this is coded racism?

They should just say what they mean: If you're a straight white man it's okay to treat you like shit.

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#44
post #29
post #21

>Physical contact and simulated physical contact (eg, textual descriptions like “ hug ” or “ backrub ”) without consent or after a request to stop. [violates the code of conduct] I can't tell if this is a joke or not.

In an employment environment, that is clearcut sexual harassment. The OCC is bringing some of that professionalism to open source communities. Why would it be a joke to ban annoying personally-targeted behaviors that are unrelated to the work product? I can't think of a case where discussing cuddling someone is appropriate for a Pull Request, mailing list, or IRC chat

> In an employment environment, that is clearcut sexual harassment.

I'll never understanf this stuff. In fact I don't even understand how hugging and giving people real backrubs is sexual harassment, let alone mentioning it in text!

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#45

Looking through some of the issues on that repo, the amount of bad faith people have in the very idea of a code of conduct is astonishing. Not to mention the sheer ignorance of issues affecting minorities within the tech community (seriously, Jon Stewart could have had a weeks worth of material). Sure, the wording of the code of conduct wasn't perfect, but it'd be much nicer if people wanted to see it improved in goo…

I agree with criticisms of the very idea of a code of conduct. Why is it astonishing? Documents like this enable the worst amateur Internet lawyering.

If your parents, teachers, and local cops did not teach you how to conduct yourself, there's absolutely no way a text file will. On the other hand, it will be used to justify all kinds of unnecessary non-technical debates.

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#46

That's the smartest thing they've done all week. Now it's time to bury it dead. This is a solution looking for a problem (tm). The only thing this code of conduct does beside state the obvious (behave like adults) is the implied distrust expressed by introducing it in the first place: that without being nannied into proper behaviour, we would all act like vile animals. Generally I find such nannying deeply offensive.

I agree. I have yet to encounter a truly bad interaction on Github.

And what if I did? Learning to ignore things that could unreasonably sour your mood is a valuable skill in life anyway. Life itself doesn't really have a code like proposed.

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#47
post #21

>Physical contact and simulated physical contact (eg, textual descriptions like “ hug ” or “ backrub ”) without consent or after a request to stop. [violates the code of conduct] I can't tell if this is a joke or not.

What gets me is that they don't distinguish between description and simulation.

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#48
post #19

I feel like an open code of conduct is unnecessary. Really - the only thing you need to remember is - be nice to each other and be patient with those supplying advice and those who are asking for advice. (I have screenshots of discussions that violate this simple fundamental rule). I have flagged 40+ comments (that were accepted and acted upon) on stackoverflow alone of people just being stupid jerks. The SVN people…

It shouldn't be necessary, but it is. We live in an age where if an action is not explicitly called out as unacceptable, a significant number of people will perform said action, because if it's not explicitly unacceptable, it's obviously acceptable. In short, if you don't say I can't abuse people, it's ok for me to abuse people. Oh, and these people will also happily throw around the "First Amendment" as justificatio…

> We live in an age where if an action is not explicitly called out as unacceptable, a significant number of people will perform said action, because if it's not explicitly unacceptable, it's obviously acceptable.

I don't think this is a good argument, because you might as well say

We live in an age where if an action is explicitly called out as unacceptable, a significant number of people will perform said action, to protest the very idea that it was made explicitly unacceptable.

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#49
This is probably a parallel, but I still think Apple came up with the best, most self-disciplining code of conduct of all times:

> We will reject Apps for any content or behavior that we believe is over the line. What line, you ask? Well, as a Supreme Court Justice once said, "I'll know it when I see it". And we think that you will also know it when you cross it.

Yes, they do publish more direct rejection reasons too. But those reasons were enumerated by experience and were repeated over and over -- like religious hate. What I like is they did not start with a committee of people saying, "Let's brainstorm what could go wrong."

To be able to deal with a large fraternity of people, the better approach is to not imagine a nominal case. You have to start openly, then establish a nominal case with experience.

Mark Stehlik once said, "But, you don't make policies around edge cases; you make policies for the nominal case and deal with the edge cases as the exceptions they are." I like this because this enforces a clear intention of being able to deal with edge cases. This is just like Apple's review guidelines. Firstly, they call it guidelines and not code of conduct. That enforces that they are human and flexible.

The problem with having a code of conduct with a large fraternity of people is that you immediately give the community an intent of what you like and what you don't like. That discourages you to find things that you may have liked but now will never get to see. That also gives idiots in a community a chance to police potential talent based on now written code of conduct. That's a grammar-nazi behavior. You may get great English teachers in that community, but I doubt a Hemingway would want anything to do with you.

Also, it has to be unique to each project. Having a blanket open source code of conduct is bad. It follows what you know, and discourages what you don't. So it's essentially an inbreeding system. And if an open source project accepts and celebrates an inbreeding system, then it is just a proprietary company with no money and wget-able code, essentially failing on both ends.

Re: GitHub Puts Open Code of Conduct on Pause

#50

That's the smartest thing they've done all week. Now it's time to bury it dead. This is a solution looking for a problem (tm). The only thing this code of conduct does beside state the obvious (behave like adults) is the implied distrust expressed by introducing it in the first place: that without being nannied into proper behaviour, we would all act like vile animals. Generally I find such nannying deeply offensive.

It's offensive, to a woman, to talk to her without permission from her male guardian. It's offensive, to a woman, to ask for some man's permission to talk to her. Both of these are true. Both of these are false. In order to know what's offensive for any given group, a written summary is extremely helpful. Posit a group of people brought together from around the world from many varied cultures. They have no way to kno…

Bottom line is: People will find ways to feel offended.
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