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The decline of the MBA will cut off the supply of bullshit

economist.com

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Re: The decline of the MBA will cut off the supply of bullshit

#41

Post by antonovka2 »

fretlessjazz wrote: post #34
antonovka2 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

37signals would be significantly raised in my estimation if you tempered your invectives with less emotional arguments. Of course, tempered rational arguments rarely drive significant traffic, and lackluster traffic doesn't drive sales.

This is not the 36signals blog nor TMZ.com; Jason can say what he wants.

Where did I claim otherwise? I only noted that his suggested approach -- which is clearly reflected by 37signals -- has led to me maintain a lower estimation of their decorum and the value of their positions.

Re: The decline of the MBA will cut off the supply of bullshit

#42

Post by thwarted »

hpvic03 wrote: post #35
SandB0x wrote: post #18

To me studying business because you want to be good at business is like studying the concept of winning if you want to be good at a sport. That could probably be phrased a little better, but I am just amazed at the number of smart young people I know who aspire to study an MBA rather than something tangible/critical that will give them a useful or scarce ability.

Sports teams spend hours every day watching film for a reason. You have to study the problem you're facing in order to figure out the best way to handle it. Business is simply solving one problem after another until you've got a profitable company. You learn a ton by starting and running a business, but a formal education can give you a more encompassing framework on how to think and approach specific situations. I'm…

I think the films being referred to were more along the lines of "how to spend your millions", "what it's like to show off your superbowl ring", or commercials where sports stars are asked "What are you going to do now?" and they respond "Go to Disney Land", as if these somehow indicated HOW to win. The films you're referring to are the proper ones to watch to, as you say, study the problem area and come up with winning strategies. It's not watching movies like Big to find out how to become an executive at a toy company or Gung Ho to determine how to run an auto manufacturing plant.

Re: The decline of the MBA will cut off the supply of bullshit

#43

Post by InclinedPlane »

I can certainly understand the desire to vilify MBAs, there's certainly plenty to complain about. However, it's also worth remembering that folks with sound business sense and good intentions are really very valuable. There are countless examples of very talented people (engineers, artists, musicians) who came to ruin because they lacked even the slightest business sense and made some bad choices they couldn't recover from. Weighed along with that there are many examples of healthy working relationships where makers and business folks work with each other, complementing each other's skills, making a more successful business venture than either could alone. Would Woz have helped revolutionize the computer industry to the same degree without the help of Jobs? How many other examples of that sort exist?

As well, the quality of the average programmer is nothing to crow about (just check Daily WTF if you need examples). Personally I can't say for sure whether I would rather work with an average programmer or an average MBA, neither situation fills me with enthusiasm. The absence of business savvy professionals from the startup world is not something to look forward to, even if it comes with the beneficial result of fewer predatory MBAs. A preferable future would be one where a greater percentage of makers gain enough business sense to be able to get along on their own, avoid the worst business mistakes, and also to develop the radar to be able to avoid the sharks and find the angels.

Re: The decline of the MBA will cut off the supply of bullshit

#44

Post by InclinedPlane »

absconditus wrote: post #39

"No financial man will ever understand business because financial people think a company makes money. A company makes shoes, and no financial man understands that. They think money is real. Shoes are real. Money is an end result." Peter Drucker

This is silly. Both aspects are important. Someone who thinks money isn't real may make huge basic business blunders like not paying the right taxes, not managing their debt/income correctly, or just making horribly inefficient business choices (I've seen this a lot). The result may be a company that goes out of business even though it's perfectly viable if run correctly. Or a company that dies because it inadvertently violates tax law, or labor law, or environmental law, etc, etc. Or merely a company that doesn't compete as effectively against its cohorts and falls so far behind it becomes irrelevant.

Re: The decline of the MBA will cut off the supply of bullshit

#45

Post by pwnstigator »

What do the brightest and poshest students at Oxford and Harvard want to study? Business.

Brightest? Math, computer science, the natural sciences, and the humanities.

Poshest? Philosophy, classics.

Neither has much interest in an undergraduate business degree, and both classes of people come from an environment where people with undergraduate business degrees are considered not to have gone to college.

Regarding business credentialing education: you do that after college, especially if you need or want a late 20s boost. That's what the MBA's for.

Re: The decline of the MBA will cut off the supply of bullshit

#46

Post by markpercival »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #44
absconditus wrote: post #39

"No financial man will ever understand business because financial people think a company makes money. A company makes shoes, and no financial man understands that. They think money is real. Shoes are real. Money is an end result." Peter Drucker

This is silly. Both aspects are important. Someone who thinks money isn't real may make huge basic business blunders like not paying the right taxes, not managing their debt/income correctly, or just making horribly inefficient business choices (I've seen this a lot). The result may be a company that goes out of business even though it's perfectly viable if run correctly. Or a company that dies because it inadvertent…

No, what's silly is that people still quote Peter Drucker with a straight face.

Ever been frustrated by the many layers of middle management in corporate America today, or laughed at a dilbert strip? Blame Peter Drucker.

Just look at the results of all this "management as a science" bullshit - only one fifth of employees feel engaged with their jobs today, as was recently pointed out by the WSJ (http://blogs.wsj.com/management/2009/12/16/management’s-dirt...).

Re: The decline of the MBA will cut off the supply of bullshit

#47

Post by timothychung »

For most students, MBAs are for networking, from what I was told.

People exchange their business cards on the very first day and build up a network trying to climb the corp ladder together...

It is a sad situation but nevertheless, who seek true value in our modern world? Reflections will bring us wisdom.

Re: The decline of the MBA will cut off the supply of bullshit

#48

Post by richardw »

As entrepreneurs our focus is different anyway. Some people will attend b-school to get a better job. We'll attend to learn skills, which is part of what the article says:

"In future, those who stump up will do so because they want to learn the skills, not because they think they are buying entry into a cool and exclusive club"

B-school is what you make of it. You get a couple years to soak up a ton of knowledge. Sure there's always BS but there are some incredibly powerful models that you just won't learn outside of it unless you're very dedicated. HR? As primarily a developer, I'm not going to read an HR textbook unless someone tests me on it. Turns out it's a very interesting subject and links strongly to your strategy. Same with marketing, finance, etc etc.

You can also attend, get through the exams and have the primary output being a piece of paper - same as any other degree.

Re: The decline of the MBA will cut off the supply of bullshit

#49

Post by jacoblyles »

sethg wrote: post #9

[I]f fewer bright, ambitious people go into business, economies may suffer. Instead the talent will go increasingly into the public sector, the law, medicine—which are already bursting with bright people as it is. This must be some new definition of “suffer” that I was not previously aware of.

I think it would be conservative to estimate that millions of jobs and billions of dollars of production are generated regularly from firms founded by "bussinessy" business types. Yesterday I was listening to an interview of an entrepreneur that I admire, and I didn't realize until then that he had an MBA. There are probably tens of thousands of people employed by him.

But don't let me get in the way of your prejudices, it's always fun to kick an unpopular person in public for the general amusement.

Re: The decline of the MBA will cut off the supply of bullshit

#50

Post by jacoblyles »

thwarted wrote: post #42
hpvic03 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sports teams spend hours every day watching film for a reason. You have to study the problem you're facing in order to figure out the best way to handle it. Business is simply solving one problem after another until you've got a profitable company. You learn a ton by starting and running a business, but a formal education can give you a more encompassing framework on how to think and approach specific situations. I'm…

I think the films being referred to were more along the lines of "how to spend your millions", "what it's like to show off your superbowl ring", or commercials where sports stars are asked "What are you going to do now?" and they respond "Go to Disney Land", as if these somehow indicated HOW to win. The films you're referring to are the proper ones to watch to, as you say, study the problem area and come up with winn…

The business program that you attended must really suck.
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