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The decline of the MBA will cut off the supply of bullshit

economist.com

31–40 of 73 posts

Re: The decline of the MBA will cut off the supply of bullshit

#31
I'd like to know what counts as bullshit. Six Sigma and other such fads certainly seem like they ought to be included. But, what's not bullshit? A good MBA program is an amalgam of fundamental concepts in economics, sociology, mathematics (at least stats), and such. Six Sigma might be analyzed, but it's not presented as a fundamental truth or even a profound idea.

Let's take a specific example: the concept of "agency costs". An economist defines these to be the inefficiencies resulting from one's agents (those doing work for him, and those doing work for those agents, etc.) having different incentives than himself. MBA program include agency costs as one of many economic concepts discussed.

A friend with a Harvard MBA was selling his house while living in another city. He noted that the traditional real estate agent's "6/4" commission structure (6% of the first 100K and 4% thereafter) causes a rational agent to sell as many homes as possible without regard to the actual selling prices. Why bother seeking out a buyer willing to pay $20K more when you only get $800 of that? It would be easier to seek out an additional seller instead. An agent incentivized with this structure likely would not act in his best interests.

So, my friend persuaded an agent to accept a very different plan: 2% up to the price he felt he could get by putting out a FSBO sign in the front yard and 10% thereafter. With this, the agent could earn significantly more by working to find a high-paying buyer. The house ended up selling for a little more than the "FSBO sign" price, so he at least saved on commission.

Those here without MBAs might also think in this way -- much as those without CS degrees might also understand algorithmic complexity. It's not that the content of a top MBA program can't be learned through self study in the same way that good developers are sometimes self taught. But, to suggest that the fundamental content of an MBA program is "bullshit" ignores what is valuable.

Perhaps we are most aware of frat-boy MBAs' self-important yapping, but the fundamental concepts of these programs are generally sound. I have an MBA from a less-than-Harvard program and have found what I learned there to be of benefit. And, I consider myself pretty much bullshit free.

Re: The decline of the MBA will cut off the supply of bullshit

#32
post #9

[I]f fewer bright, ambitious people go into business, economies may suffer. Instead the talent will go increasingly into the public sector, the law, medicine—which are already bursting with bright people as it is. This must be some new definition of “suffer” that I was not previously aware of.

Wow. So you don't think that the abilities and attitude of business people matter to the economy, even startups? I hope that the potential and actual startups/businesses on this site don't have this attitude. If this was the prevailing attitude then to say the economy would 'suffer' would be an understatement. Whether an MBA improves or signifies ability is another matter entirely.

Re: The decline of the MBA will cut off the supply of bullshit

#33
post #9

[I]f fewer bright, ambitious people go into business, economies may suffer. Instead the talent will go increasingly into the public sector, the law, medicine—which are already bursting with bright people as it is. This must be some new definition of “suffer” that I was not previously aware of.

Really, Think ambulance chasers, class-action specialists, and medical specialists. Why are there so few family practitioners, yet so many specialists.

Medical specialists make more money.

That's a pretty shallow explanation though, because the question is why. Assuming some level of supply and demand still applies to the medical profession, people seem to go to specialists more often than GP's even for things a GP could probably handle. But why do they do that? One possible explanation is that people don't like doctors, so they only go when something is wrong with them, at which point they spend most of their time seeing a specialist for that particular ailment and then forgetting about it.

Oh, yeah, liability. A GP can reduce their liability by referring you to someone else pretty often.

It's also possible that being a specialist carries other benefits, like prestige and status and personal interest.

Re: The decline of the MBA will cut off the supply of bullshit

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need permission to say bullshit. Always call it when you see it. It doesn't need shelter.

37signals would be significantly raised in my estimation if you tempered your invectives with less emotional arguments. Of course, tempered rational arguments rarely drive significant traffic, and lackluster traffic doesn't drive sales.

This is not the 36signals blog nor TMZ.com; Jason can say what he wants.

Re: The decline of the MBA will cut off the supply of bullshit

#35
post #18

To me studying business because you want to be good at business is like studying the concept of winning if you want to be good at a sport. That could probably be phrased a little better, but I am just amazed at the number of smart young people I know who aspire to study an MBA rather than something tangible/critical that will give them a useful or scarce ability.

Sports teams spend hours every day watching film for a reason. You have to study the problem you're facing in order to figure out the best way to handle it. Business is simply solving one problem after another until you've got a profitable company.

You learn a ton by starting and running a business, but a formal education can give you a more encompassing framework on how to think and approach specific situations.

I'm going to an undergraduate business school right now, and I'm also a web developer and entrepreneur. Sure, some stuff is common sense, but I've also learned a lot that was under the surface that I've already found to be invaluable in my endeavors.

Re: The decline of the MBA will cut off the supply of bullshit

#36
post #9

[I]f fewer bright, ambitious people go into business, economies may suffer. Instead the talent will go increasingly into the public sector, the law, medicine—which are already bursting with bright people as it is. This must be some new definition of “suffer” that I was not previously aware of.

Right now, I'd say we already have exactly the right number of clever doctors, and far too many clever lawyers.

Re: The decline of the MBA will cut off the supply of bullshit

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, I don't think it's the MBAs that are the problems. Rather, the job market was sending the wrong signals by paying people with MBAs far more than they're worth. Due to the inflationary monetary supply enabled by the federal reserve, the finance industry was able to grow and become extremely profitable, attracting lots of talent with large salaries. These people would have naturally gravitated to many different c…

Inflationary monetary supply enabled by the federal reserve... lots of talent with large salaries. This sounds like a villain-hunt: a well-known cognitive bias that seeks to explain circumstances in terms of human agents with simple, understandable motivations to the exclusion of environmental, structural, or probabilistic explanations that lack such features. In this case, while I'm sure the Fed bears some responsib…

The Fed began expanding the M3 monetary supply at a historically unprecedented rate in the 80s, and has become more and more aggressive with this policy over time. The entire point of this policy is to stimulate business by encouraging spending, make credit more attractive because the value of debt loses value over time due to inflation, and discourage saving. As consumers spend more, businesses make more, sending signals to the job market that getting into business and getting an MBA is a really good idea because you make more money. So that's exactly what people have done. Now that the American consumer is tapped out, broke, and unable to take on any more credit, obviously businesses are going to do poorly because their goods aren't being purchased, and they certainly can't afford to hire any more expensive MBAs. Do you agree?

A growing and productive world workforce does lead to additional production/wealth creation, and I do think this is conducive to business, but I don't think it's the significant factor explaining the current glut in the job market for people with MBAs in the United States.

The population in China is still expanding, workforce is growing, and GDP is still booming, so if this were the driving force fueling the demand for MBAs from America then that demand should still be there.

Re: The decline of the MBA will cut off the supply of bullshit

#38
Please. There's enough bullshit in the world to outlast oil, water and sunlight. A few less MBAs, at best, means that some of that bullshit will have to find real jobs and will make slightly less money. More environmental engineers, now that would be something to celebrate.

Re: The decline of the MBA will cut off the supply of bullshit

#40
I wonder if the decline in MBA's and the associated value placed on them directly correlates to the fact that law school applications are surging. I seems to me that Law may be a close second for someone considering an MBA, I know Law is a close second for those who opt not to go to Med school.
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