New Trans-Pacific Partnership Leak Means ‘Significant Overhaul’ for Canadian Law • Hacker News Board

Re: New Trans-Pacific Partnership Leak Means ‘Significant Overhaul’ for Canadian Law

#61

Post by afarrell » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 6:01 PM UTC

afarrell wrote: post #18

norea-armozel wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what I don't grasp about this situation. Why can't content industries just accept that the gravy train of yesteryear is over? Just figure out a new business model. They've had well over a decade and a half to throw enough heads at the problem to figure out how to prevent further decline in their revenues. But it just seems they're as stubborn (if not more so) as an ox when it comes to accepting reality.

To be fair, few software product companies have committed to do the equivalent thing: releasing all of their code as open source with instructions that make it possible for an average person to spin up an instance of the product with the push of a button.

If you are going to say that my comment adds nothing to the conversation, I would appreciate it if you would make an argument for why we should allow software engineers (and designers, DevOps, Admins, marketers, CEOs, etc...) to make money off copyrighting their work and claiming things as intelectual "property", but not allow musicians (and recording engineers, marketers, distributors...) to do the same?

Why are software engineers able to make money without constantly flying from conference to conference away from their families?

Re: New Trans-Pacific Partnership Leak Means ‘Significant Overhaul’ for Canadian Law

#62

Post by smnrchrds » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 6:04 PM UTC

err4nt wrote: post #47

flycaliguy wrote: post #33

I'm excited to see the TPP potentially become an election issue in the recently ignited campaign. Really hoping the NDP brings both this mess and Bill C-51 up front so maybe we can squeeze some democracy into the process.

From what I've seen, Tom Mulcair is the only Canadian politician that seems to be in favour of the TPP. His criticism of Harper is that Harper is too weak to see it all the way through to a deal (implying an NDP gov't would ). Unless he's changed position on that he's the one to avoid on these issues.

He is in favour of a deal. He wants to see the text before making any decisions about this deal.

Re: New Trans-Pacific Partnership Leak Means ‘Significant Overhaul’ for Canadian Law

#63

Post by joesmo » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 6:05 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #36

joesmo wrote: post #22

So they're criminalizing yet another everyday activity that hurts no one and is already protected by civil law. It seems to me the US and its puppet follower states just love the idea of criminalizing things that occur naturally, hurt no one, and in their enforcement and chaos bring in billions of dollars in profit off of ruining people's lives. This has now been the norm for almost two decades and the movie / music…

> At this point, piracy is the only ethical solution to obtaining such content, as giving these companies money is immoral and supports people who threaten and ruin people's lives for profit. I don't understand this rationale at all. Surely the solution to an industry whose business practices you don't like is to stop using their products . Indeed, your rationale is one reason why Hollywood has so much power. Piracy…

I think it is my right to access culture, and it is my duty, if at all possible, to avoid supporting organizations that cause such pain and suffering in the world. I don't see what's so hard to understand about the fact that I don't want people going to jail and losing everything because they copied a song or movie and some company somewhere allegedly lost some fraction of a cent.

I think access to culture is important and what you're effectively arguing is that I should forego such access because some company somewhere is willing to not only sue me but also throw me in jail for copying some text, music, or video. I'm under no illusions that copying actually causes financial damages, of course--that's silly--but I suppose to some that might be appealing.

I also think that copying has been a huge boon to society and the economy in a scale that we can hardly fathom, let alone measure. It has contributed a lot more than the companies holding the copyright to the education and advancement of people and society. I know a lot of people whose great contributions were started only because they had the ability to copy copyrighted works, especially software. I don't know too many children, for example, that can afford to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on software simply to learn (and no, educational licenses, when they are provided, are not enough). We're talking about whole countries depending on copying for advancement not only of themselves, but of the worldwide economy and welfare: see Romania (http://www.zdnet.com/article/the-mix-of-poverty-and-piracy-t...).

Re: New Trans-Pacific Partnership Leak Means ‘Significant Overhaul’ for Canadian Law

#64

Post by flycaliguy » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 6:09 PM UTC

err4nt wrote: post #47

flycaliguy wrote: post #33

I'm excited to see the TPP potentially become an election issue in the recently ignited campaign. Really hoping the NDP brings both this mess and Bill C-51 up front so maybe we can squeeze some democracy into the process.

From what I've seen, Tom Mulcair is the only Canadian politician that seems to be in favour of the TPP. His criticism of Harper is that Harper is too weak to see it all the way through to a deal (implying an NDP gov't would ). Unless he's changed position on that he's the one to avoid on these issues.

Interesting. I know that the dairy farmer's are going to get a chance to flex their influence over conservative rural seats if things don't fall in their favour. Likewise manufacturing bases are going to be shook up. My take away is not that Mulcair would see these decisions through. More so that he feels Harper has softened Canadian influence so much over the past decade that we don't have the negotiation power to stand up for Canadian interests. I think he will present TPP as leadership test which Harper has failed.

Re: New Trans-Pacific Partnership Leak Means ‘Significant Overhaul’ for Canadian Law

#65

Post by joesmo » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 6:10 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #40

nitrogen wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When effective cultural participation requires keeping up to date with at least some of Hollywood's products, choosing not to view/listen is the same as choosing to be just that much more socially disconnected. See Moxie Marlinspike's presentation about this concept applied to technology: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eG0KrT6pBPk When one oligopoly owns the vast majority of contemporary popular culture, we, the popula…

One of my very most successful friends, by far one of the most socially and artistically connected people I know, didn't see Star Wars until his late 30s. He seemed to have suffered for that: not at all. Exactly, in as much detail as you can be patient enough to provide, how does "effective cultural participation" require you to see shitty new-release Hollywood movies? Is Marco Arment culturally disconnected? http://…

Almost 35, still haven't seen Star Wars in entirety, though I did own it on VHS for many years. Can attest that I did not "suffer" for it, though it has been a cause of awe and disbelief in others. Ok, just to be fair, some really stupid people got upset, but seriously, I wouldn't call that suffering. At this point, the movie's been ruined for decades--I just don't see the point of seeing a movie in which I already know what's going to happen. Also, IMO, from the parts that I've seen, it's just not that good.

Of course, if you apply this to all movies, books, and music under copyright you'd not only be culturally disconnected, you'd be culturally dead, so I do think the original comment is spot on.

Re: New Trans-Pacific Partnership Leak Means ‘Significant Overhaul’ for Canadian Law

#66

Post by kuschku » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 6:13 PM UTC

afarrell wrote: post #61

afarrell wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, few software product companies have committed to do the equivalent thing: releasing all of their code as open source with instructions that make it possible for an average person to spin up an instance of the product with the push of a button.

If you are going to say that my comment adds nothing to the conversation, I would appreciate it if you would make an argument for why we should allow software engineers (and designers, DevOps, Admins, marketers, CEOs, etc...) to make money off copyrighting their work and claiming things as intelectual "property", but not allow musicians (and recording engineers, marketers, distributors...) to do the same? Why are sof…

You do realize that Copyright does not apply for business logic or algorithms, so anyone can just copy those, too?

Re: New Trans-Pacific Partnership Leak Means ‘Significant Overhaul’ for Canadian Law

#67

Post by joesmo » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 6:18 PM UTC

tedunangst wrote: post #59

pbsd wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguing the frivolity of Hollywood movie piracy is not terribly hard. Would you apply the same reasoning to academic research paper and/or textbook piracy?

People certainly complain about closed access academic journals, but they whine about the "MAFIAA" ten or a hundred times as much. When the situation changes and the principal complaint about copyright overlords is about textbooks, then that can become a good place to start the discussion.

That's ridiculous. Just because the idiot masses aren't complaining about it, doesn't mean it's not a huge problem. At least one person, Aaron Swartz, has already committed suicide after being targeted and threatened by academic copyright enforcers. Some of that information was funded with public money too.

Re: New Trans-Pacific Partnership Leak Means ‘Significant Overhaul’ for Canadian Law

#68

Post by blacksmith_tb » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 6:20 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #49

rayiner wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People aren't pirating culture, they're pirating Mission Impossible. It's action-porn. It's a packaged entertainment-product. You're talking about peoples' right to food while defending their stealing Twinkies.

My favorite telling detail in this debate is the extent to which people pirate fonts. Fonts . Vanity letter shapes.

I haven't seen many statistics, but fonts are quite expensive to license. By the same token, few designers would be foolish enough to pirate a font and use it publicly; so I would think most font pirates simply want them for personal use, which can't be denying the foundries and typeface designers much income...

Re: New Trans-Pacific Partnership Leak Means ‘Significant Overhaul’ for Canadian Law

#69

Post by joesmo » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 6:22 PM UTC

jakejake wrote: post #32

joesmo wrote: post #22

So they're criminalizing yet another everyday activity that hurts no one and is already protected by civil law. It seems to me the US and its puppet follower states just love the idea of criminalizing things that occur naturally, hurt no one, and in their enforcement and chaos bring in billions of dollars in profit off of ruining people's lives. This has now been the norm for almost two decades and the movie / music…

If you feel that way and don't want to support the industry, the real ethical thing to do is to not watch or listen to their products. Only support artists who are releasing their material under terms that you agree with.

I'm already not supporting them financially. Why should I have to also deprive myself of culture as well because of them, especially when I think access to culture is my right? Your argument makes no sense.

Re: New Trans-Pacific Partnership Leak Means ‘Significant Overhaul’ for Canadian Law

#70

Post by passive » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 6:24 PM UTC

flycaliguy wrote: post #33

I'm excited to see the TPP potentially become an election issue in the recently ignited campaign. Really hoping the NDP brings both this mess and Bill C-51 up front so maybe we can squeeze some democracy into the process.

If you read the Liberal platform, the way the TPP has been developed flies directly in the face of their commitments for running government. It's a great opportunity for them to highlight their platform using a law that will have real applicability to every Canadian. It would also be a way for them to put their money where their mouth is. ;)